German Account of Ryun's 3'38.2 in '67

Not fluent but I can understand that part fine:

His time for the last 400 meters is so unbelievable that the sports reporters didn't even dare to publish it. It was still put in traditional category of 51-53 seconds. In reality Ryun ran a (flying start) last lap of 49.4 seconds. This time is confirmed; it was taken by Bayer coach Sumser. Ryun sprinted the last 300m in 36.4 seconds.

Keine Ahnung was der Bert Sumser da gestoppt hat - offensichtlich nicht Ryuns Sprintzeiten.

From Ryun's book from '67, the German crownd was so astounded by his burst of speed on the backstretch (100 meters in 11.6, I believe) that they went totally silent. Is there a video of the race avaialable? I have searched ofr it but haven't found it.

corkian wrote:

Not fluent but I can understand that part fine:

His time for the last 400 meters is so unbelievable that the sports reporters didn't even dare to publish it. It was still put in traditional category of 51-53 seconds. In reality Ryun ran a (flying start) last lap of 49.4 seconds. This time is confirmed; it was taken by Bayer coach Sumser. Ryun sprinted the last 300m in 36.4 seconds.

I can believe it. Remember, Ryun ran the last lap of the '72 Olympic Trials in 51 seconds IIRC. And by '72 Ryun had allegedly lost a bit of his speed. This German race was similar - slow pace followed by all-out last lap blitz.

Nice find!

This is consistent with the link I posted containing this account of the race

"He forced the American to run really wide round the penultimate bend. But Ryun caught Tummler with 300 to go. The American’s last 300 left two of Europe’s finest finishers languishing far back. At the tape, Ryun (3:38.2) had taken four seconds out of Tummler (3:42.3) and Norpoth (3:42.5) with a last 300 of 36.4. In fact, Norpoth barely held off the second American, Grelle (3:42.8). It was a sobering end to the season."

http://racingpast.ca/john_contents.php?id=202

And with Ryun's account of the race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaKzMGroHs&t=1m54s

Maybe deano will shut up now about the last lap not being under 50 seconds with a 36.4 second last 300.

This must be the fastest last lap ever in a 1500 or mile race, and if it isn't then it surely would be when you factor in that it was run on cinder!

Although it has been over 45 years, I still remember TF&N's account. They said the German crowd developed "lockjaw". An important thing to remember in considering Ryun's achievements is that in the mid to late 1960s, apart from running on tracks inferior to those of current day, there was no European circuit to speak (and it would have had to have been an amateur circuit, which raise all sorts of problems about transportation cost, housing cost, etc.).

ventolin^3 wrote:

lot of debate over ryun's finish

this appears to be a contemporary report from germany ( but please check )

http://www.zeit.de/1967/34/rasender-ryun/seite-2

Ventolin - Where's the f*ckin' video of the race?

"

said88 wrote:

Keine Ahnung was der Bert Sumser da gestoppt hat - offensichtlich nicht Ryuns Sprintzeiten.

"Die Zeit" is one of Germany's most respected newspapers and the author of the article, Adolf Metzner, was a former Olympian and accomplished physician.

I don't think he would have misquoted Sumser and I find it even more unlikely that Sumser would let himself be quoted with that time for the last lap if he wasn't entireley sure he had timed it correctly.

Wannabe Goldbug wrote:

"Die Zeit" is one of Germany's most respected newspapers and the author of the article, Adolf Metzner, was a former Olympian and accomplished physician.

I don't think he would have misquoted Sumser and I find it even more unlikely that Sumser would let himself be quoted with that time for the last lap if he wasn't entireley sure he had timed it correctly.

For sure, "Die Zeit" is one of Germany's most respected newspapers. But 36,4 is wrong - definitely. No one has ever come close to that, not even athletes who have run the distance several seconds faster than Ryun - not even in much slower races than Ryun's 3:38,2.

When Ryun himself says that the last lap was 49 seconds, than he also definitely is wrong. When we are talking about facts, athletes and coaches often are not the best source. For sure I also havn't seen the race and there is this small possibility that Sumser has taken the correct time. But considering the history of distance running and trying to think about the subject with just a little bit of logic, for me there is just one conclusion: Bert Sumser has done a mistake.

To the "accomplished physician": Some 20 years ago, in Germany there was an analysis from a German professor for something like sports sience. He tried to make a forecast for future world records in athletics. The one number which I very well remember was his 26:38 for the mens 10k - the ultimate limit for human beings by something like 99% (what ever he want's to tell with this number). Well, for me this was totally stupidity and it just took some years that Salah Hissou has run this time. (but to be honest, at this time I never would have thought that just 10 yearsd later somebody will run the distance in 26:17!) But the limit still is far away, that's not a question.

To the "most respected newspapers": another of these "most respected newspapers" in Germany is the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung". Some 5 years back they had an one page article, also from a sports scientist. His main point was that women will reach the results from men in a while. He gave some (stupid) stats to justify this. And he also gave the example of the discus, where women already have achieved better then men (WR 76,80 against 74,08).

I don't know if such "scientists" just exist in Germany.

No one else has been simultaneously capable of 45.low / 1:40.low / 3:24 / 3:41 either

I love this.

The sub 50 last lap is quoted in Ryun's biography written many, many years ago. By Ryun himself. By a contemporary german newspaper, as well as the other source I listed. Yet you say it is all wrong.

Look at his nick. said88 is a die hard Said Aouita fan. And Aouita is the only person with an officially confirmed sub50 last lap in a 1500m race.

He can't accept it, that Ryun did it 20 years earlier and in a faster race.

Wannabe Goldbug wrote:

Look at his nick. said88 is a die hard Said Aouita fan. And Aouita is the only person with an officially confirmed sub50 last lap in a 1500m race.

He can't accept it, that Ryun did it 20 years earlier and in a faster race.

Love this!

So, you believe it? Jim Ryun was able to finish much faster than all the likes of Morceli, El Guerrouj, Lagat, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita and all the other greats from the last decades could do in much slower races?

With less knowledge about training. With worth shoes. On a definitely inferior track. Just a question.

At which finishing time would you begin to be sceptical? 36,0? 35,5? 35? Or at 30,84? Just wondering.

I found this in a 2010 TF&N Forum. At least it confirms my memory, and I would trust Dick Bank's splits (as would most who know how careful he was).At the time, everyone talked about Ryun's demolition job of Tummler and Norpoth in the US vs. West Germany meet in Dusseldorf in the summer of 1967. Dick Bank reported that with 400 to go, Tummler took off and Norpoth did everything he could to impede Ryun. Ryun went wide around Norpoth and chased after Tummler, catching him with 300 to go. At this point, Bank reported: "For a split second, they were even but then Jim accelerated like nothing I have ever seen. It made his 3:33.1 look like just another run. Suddenly the packed stadium developd lockjaw. They were stunned and speechless. I never expect to see anything quite like it again. Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200, but I timed him and feel that 50.6, 36.4, and 24.8 seem reasonable. It was worth coming to Europe."Now that, sportsfans, is the Good Old Days. [this was in the Forum]

said88 wrote:

Wannabe Goldbug wrote:

Look at his nick. said88 is a die hard Said Aouita fan. And Aouita is the only person with an officially confirmed sub50 last lap in a 1500m race.

He can't accept it, that Ryun did it 20 years earlier and in a faster race.

Love this!

So, you believe it? Jim Ryun was able to finish much faster than all the likes of Morceli, El Guerrouj, Lagat, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita and all the other greats from the last decades could do in much slower races?

With less knowledge about training. With worth shoes. On a definitely inferior track. Just a question.

At which finishing time would you begin to be sceptical? 36,0? 35,5? 35? Or at 30,84? Just wondering.

Montesquieu wrote:

Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200, but I timed him and feel that 50.6, 36.4, and 24.8 seem reasonable. It was worth coming to Europe."

[/quote]

It seems he has done a "Webb" between 300 and 200 to go - 11,6 after a 14,2. But unlike Webb, after this he was able to finish in one of the fastest last 200 ever - 24,8. So, you believe it? I don't.

"Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200". Why have there been offered many times for one and the same runner in the same race?

said88 wrote:

Montesquieu wrote:

Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200, but I timed him and feel that 50.6, 36.4, and 24.8 seem reasonable. It was worth coming to Europe."

It seems he has done a "Webb" between 300 and 200 to go - 11,6 after a 14,2. But unlike Webb, after this he was able to finish in one of the fastest last 200 ever - 24,8. So, you believe it? I don't.

"Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200". Why have there been offered many times for one and the same runner in the same race?[/quote]

At least one person on this thread has some common sense.

Ventolin finds a way of bringing this race up every couple of months as if he's stumbled upon it for the first time. Lol.

I agree with you that its not possible, and no one who makes these claims has ever been able to come up with a video of the race. Athletes themselves are notorious for exaggerating their own times and the fact that even on here I have read claims for his last lap ranging from 50.6, to 49.7 and now 49.4, show no consistency and make them unreliable. What will some one find next week? 48.8?

There was a claim Aouita ran a 36 low last 300 in a 3:34 race in 84. I also think this is wrong. So called experts on here have a poor appreciation of what is possible and what is not possible.

Ryun was freakish good, but all this 45 low, 3:41 ability is the biggest load of BS I've ever read on here. The idea he could run 2 Secs faster than doped up guys with latest training theories from 90s is beyond stupid.

What "latest training theories"? People today still use the same training that they did 40-50 years ago. Not much if anything has generally changed.

deanouk wrote:

It seems he has done a "Webb" between 300 and 200 to go - 11,6 after a 14,2. But unlike Webb, after this he was able to finish in one of the fastest last 200 ever - 24,8. So, you believe it? I don't.

"Many times were offered for Jim over his last 400, 300, and 200". Why have there been offered many times for one and the same runner in the same race?

At least one person on this thread has some common sense.

Ventolin finds a way of bringing this race up every couple of months as if he's stumbled upon it for the first time. Lol.

I agree with you that its not possible, and no one who makes these claims has ever been able to come up with a video of the race. Athletes themselves are notorious for exaggerating their own times and the fact that even on here I have read claims for his last lap ranging from 50.6, to 49.7 and now 49.4, show no consistency and make them unreliable. What will some one find next week? 48.8?

There was a claim Aouita ran a 36 low last 300 in a 3:34 race in 84. I also think this is wrong. So called experts on here have a poor appreciation of what is possible and what is not possible.

Ryun was freakish good, but all this 45 low, 3:41 ability is the biggest load of BS I've ever read on here. The idea he could run 2 Secs faster than doped up guys with latest training theories from 90s is beyond stupid.[/quote]

You yourself have pointed out that T&FN wrote that Ovett ran the last 200 of his EC win in 1978 about a second faster than he actually did, based on videotape examination.

T&FN also wrote, IIRC that Wottle ran his last 100 in his 1972 Olympic 800 win in 11-something, when it was actually about 13 seconds (they timed from the wrong line). Aouita was also widely cited as running the last 100 while chasing Cram in 1985 in 11.6 or 11.8 due to the same mistiming issue.

With Ryun, a last lap in a 3:38 in 50xx is remotely possible. A last 400 in 49xx is probably not, and a last 300 in 36xx is certainly not.

moron

that is the contemporary german account of the race, not any american account

the 800 split is given as 2'03.6 which no one has disputed ( or can't germans take a 2 lap split ??? )

if they can take a 2 lap split, they can't but fail to take the 3 lap split accurately as timers woudn't have moved, with the 2 germans & ryun virtually together from accounts

that is all that is needed

it is virtually impossible the last 300m was not 36.2 by subtraction from 3'38.2

a 36.2 is 48.3 pace, entirely consistent with a sub-50, & we have a respected german timer giving it as 49.4

the only way you or any other peabrain can dispute the last 300m is if you believe germans can't take timings at 1, 2 or 3 laps

no one woud be that moronic to believe that of germans

deanouk wrote:There was a claim Aouita ran a 36 low last 300 in a 3:34 race in 84

3'34.8 beating mei a 5k/10k guy, who only had a 3'36.6pb by year end, by 2.54s

rest of field were low grade euros

now i'd be surprised if aouita was 10 - 15m behind this field at 1200 unless he tripped/stumbled & we wouda heard about that - a 3'34 with a stumble/trip when wr was 3'30

more likely near the front

that woud give mei a 38 finish which is not likely for a 3'36 guy running a near pb

mei more likely to have gone 42, giving aouita something like 39/40

said88 is guy with best knowledge

perhaps aouita was 10 - 15m behind at 1200...