Great canova article

Think about it: Pretty much everybody except Canova athletes have used traditional methods. Not knocking Canova or anything, just saying.

True....but do you think the athletes he coaches would run as fast if he used traditional methods?

The training that his athletes do is not as different from the "traditional methods" as some would have you think.

Jshsg wrote:

True....but do you think the athletes he coaches would run as fast if he used traditional methods?

HIS athletes wouldn't run as fast. 99% of athletes in the world would do just as well or better with Lydiard training(provided they actually understand it). His athletes need a different stimulus. Look at Moses Mosop, he's been training with Canova for something like 11 years. His body probably doesn't even respond to simple aerobic training anymore. Mosop going on a Lydiard style 2 hour long run won't do much of anything for him. For the rest of the world, it's still good.

kjhcg wrote:

HIS athletes wouldn't run as fast. 99% of athletes in the world would do just as well or better with Lydiard training(provided they actually understand it). His athletes need a different stimulus. Look at Moses Mosop, he's been training with Canova for something like 11 years. His body probably doesn't even respond to simple aerobic training anymore. Mosop going on a Lydiard style 2 hour long run won't do much of anything for him. For the rest of the world, it's still good.

You have a couple of really good points here. Part of this tempest in a teapot regarding the Canova "revolution" is that the magazine summary of Canova is very different from the magazine summary of Lydiard. "Speed work BEFORE marathon training? But that's all backwards!" That kind of statement is proof of the difficulty of reducing either coach down to a one-sentence summary fit for mass consumption.

If you follow Lydiard's ACTUAL program (as you've alluded to in your post) then you will get insanely fit. Lydiard's program is not for the faint of heart. Again, like you've alluded to, if someone does a Lydiard type program for 10 years or whatever, they might be well served by adopting some of Canova's ideas. Most of us are YEARS away from the kind of base necessary to benefit from Canova's training. For most of us, "real" Lydiard is plenty challenging!

On the other hand, if you follow the Lydiard "magazine" program (which has little to do with "real" Lydiard) of lots of jogging, no quality work for months, scrupulously avoiding all faster running including strides (none of which Lydiard would have actually advocated) then yes, Canova's method, with its greater aerobic quality, will be "superior" to the (fake) Lydiard method.

That isn't a knock on REAL Lydiard stuff at all. I'm only noting that if you're following what the "reduction for the sake of the masses" version of Lydiard, you're screwing yourself over. If you're actually doing what Lydiard advocated (lots of "best aerobic effort" etc then you're probably doing quite enough, especially when you consider Lydiard's program was designed for working folks trying to maximize their potential around their professional lives, as opposed to Canova's athletes, who have the luxury of being full-time athletes.

It's not that I don't think Canova has something to teach us, (he absolutely does) but I think most of us more closely resemble Lydiard's original guys in the 60s than Canova's athletes now. By all means, though, if you've done Lydiard training for ten years and have kind of plateaued, maybe adopting some of Canova's ideas into your training will result in improvement.

I really like the way this article is written: "just know you have a solo date with a special block the following Wednesday.". It seems more directed toward serious runners of our type, as opposed to "hobby joggers". I have been to "runnersworld", and find that they are directed toward the "hobby jogger demographic".

*Does anyone with expirience with "runningtime" know if it is a good website?

Yeah Runningtimes is pretty good, it's a bit different from Runner's world (even though they are owned by the same company) and is aimed at the more serious runner.

Canova doesn't actually develop runners. He STARTs with runners who have already built "the aerobic house" which means they have been running for 10-12 years mostly informally to school and back etc. He has no interest in developing runners, that is the hard part. I am much more interested in coaches that actually develop ordinary runners from scratch into great runners. For example Henry Phelan who coached in Mass at Bromfield and Linconl Sudbury coached kids from grade 6 through 12, ordinary local kids with no special talent from scratch using Lydiard and produced so many state championship teams and individual and Footlocker qualifiers that even he has lost count. That is real coaching and actually developing runners. Canova takes Kenyans who are 17-22, meaning they have already been running for 12-15 years and are already world class and borderline world class and throws them into big mileage and 3 hard runs per week and a few become world beaters. Of course any system is going to produce some worldbeaters given what he is starting with, so I am not that all impressed.

Also his system is worthless for anyone who hasn't already spent 10 years or more building the "aerobic house" meaning his system is useless for 99.9% of all runners including all US high school and college runners.

Show me a coach who actually develops athletes and that will impress me.

Keep in mind that Running Times is a magazine too. While this article is pretty good (and it's clear they actually talked to Canova and his assistant), the writing still seems to focus on the fancy details instead of the dull, boring fact that Canova's athletes are already in exceptional aerobic shape and knock out very impressive mileage. What worries me about this article is that it could be interpreted as implying that you can have the fast marathon without the concomitant aerobic base.

The early part of the article makes it seem like hills and circuits are a bigger deal than what I've seen in real training logs, but of course I'm not Canova or one of his athletes, so maybe that just doesn't get onto the calendar. Also, grizz should note that Lydiard's program is 60 years old, and while I am a strong proponent of Lydiard principles, I also think we've come a long ways since his day. It's a fallacy to say that "Canova is really Lydiard," since there are some important differences, but it's also a fallacy to say that "Canova is something apart from Lydiard." The legacy of Lydiard is that your aerobic base is the most important determiner of your athletic success. Renato Canova's work is groundbreaking because it is showing us how we can do more with the aerobic fitness that we already have—but we have to get it in the first place. That's not to say that Canova-style training won't build your aerobic base; quite the opposite! But Joe 2:45 Marathoner (or Johnny 5:00 high school miler) isn't ready for 17-24 miles at 95% of marathon pace.

If you want to see some Renato Canova marathon training in action, check out this schedule and analysis of Moses Mosop and Abel Kirui's marathon training in 2011:

I also hope that Renato Canova will post Kirui's training from this Spring until the Olympic Games marathon: it would be fascinating to compare/contrast his 2011 training and his 2012 training.

Northern Star wrote:

[While this article is pretty good the writing still seems to focus on the fancy details instead of the dull, boring fact that Canova's athletes are already in exceptional aerobic shape and knock out very impressive mileage.

Exactly!! The actual key to Canova's marathon program is that the athletes run 130-170 mpw. That is not even mentioned in the article. Show ANY program that won't work when you take world class Kenyans that includes that kind of mileage plus some hard runs thrown in there (call them tempos, call them specific race pace workouts, call them long hard runs, call them Lydiard time trials, call them Lydiard 3/4 effort runs, call them special phase workouts, call them "run to the barn runs" or create your own new terminology).

I get a kick out of all these Searchers out there looking for the "secret" and studying the minute details of Canova and memorizing the names and terminology that he came up with to describe workouts that have been around for decades. Canova's system can be simplified as followed: Cherry pick about 10-15 hungry Kenyans age 17-22 who are willing to run through a brick wall and have them run 130-170 mpw and throw in several weeks of workouts (call them whatever high tech sounding name you want) and watch 3 or 4 of them rise to the top and then say you have come up with a revolutionary new system.

JimE wrote: Cherry pick about 10-15 hungry Kenyans age 17-22 who are willing to run through a brick wall and have them run 130-170 mpw and throw in several weeks of workouts (call them whatever high tech sounding name you want) and watch 3 or 4 of them rise to the top and then say you have come up with a revolutionary new system.

Afraid so.

NorthernStar, I've read your article. I think we're mostly on the same page. I was typing quickly and my original post wasn't as clear as I would have liked.

I dislike magazine summaries, largely, because the summarization often misrepresents a program, regardless of the coach. Canova has written extensively that for a well trained elite athlete, an easy/moderate 2:30 run isn't going to do much for fitness. For you, me, and Suzy, though, a 2:30 run at an easy to moderate pace is probably plenty of stimulus. That doesn't invalidate anything Canova has written; it only emphasizes, like you mentioned, that you have to GET the insane base fitness before you go worrying about those 40k runs at 95% of marathon pace.

Like you've brought up, I hope people don't read this and misconstrue Canova to mean "just hammer your long runs really hard and do lots of hill work, don't waste your time doing mileage." Unfortunately, just like Lydiard's "100 miles at best aerobic pace" got reduced to "meh, just jog around, you don't want to burn out" (NOT through Lydiard's fault, of course) I have a feeling that Canova is going to get misrepresented and then co-opted in the misrepresented form by people who only know half the picture.

I think what it comes down to is that the "newsbite" format of magazines isn't the best vehicle for learning about a training philosophy. There's a ton of Canova stuff right on this website and some good "interpretations" of it (including the handful of articles NorthernStar has written). I hope those curious about Canova and his stuff go to the original resources (the coach's own posts here and other places) instead of reading a magazine article and going "ok, got it, a 2hr, 30min at an easy pace isn't helpful."

Every elite marathoner is running that kind of mileage. Why do some Kenyan runners go 2:03-2:04 and win major events? That's down to better training. PS Several weeks of workouts? Why post if you don't have a clue?

"Who has used traditional training philosophies and had positive results?" That's an odd question. Almost anyone who has had positive results at marathon training has used "traditional philosophies." The repeated success of the users is what made the philosophies "traditional."

I see his training philosophy for the marathon as very good. It is designed for the true marathoner in my opinion who has the genetic makeup to handle very long distances as well as the years of training. His idea of short to long actually makes complete sense. Think of it this way. When you start out as an athlete you run shorter distances and develop your speed. As your career advances you will most likely move up to the distances that suit you best. His marathon training block is basically a scaled down version of that. It works incredibly well and no one can argue with his results.

I hear this criticism a lot and I just don't get it. Do you want a professional coach like Canova to go and develop some people with no talent into 15 minute 5k runners? How is he going to make money? He doesn't have the benefit of a high school and collegiate system where a coach can be supported independent of the success of his athletes. Despite what you think, there is an important place for coaches who can take already accomplished runners and make them even better. I'd like to see a high school coach with countless Footlocker qualifiers try to take a 28:40 10k runner to a 2:05 marathon. If you think I'm wrong, just look at the number of talented American runners who have struggled so hard to break 2:10.

Most of his athletes do not run 130-170 miles a week. I know that Mosop runs 120 miles a week and I think that is standard for most of his top Marathoners. His athletes work very hard and are very talented but his training has definitely brought the Marathon to a whole knew level. Mileage is important but you cannot simplify training down to just mileage.

kjhcg wrote:

[Do you want a professional coach like Canova to go and develop some people with no talent into 15 minute 5k runners? How is he going to make money? He doesn't have the benefit of a high school and collegiate system where a coach can be supported independent of the success of his athletes. Despite what you think, there is an important place for coaches who can take already accomplished runners and make them even better.

I have no problem with Canova making money by what he is doing and yes there is a need for such coaches. Am I impressed by what he is doing? Hell no. ANYONE can take 10-15 Kenyans who want to run through a brick wall and are already 17-22 with 10000 to 15000 lifetime accumulated mileage from running to school, active play, semi-structured taining etc and put them in a very high mileage program plus lots of workouts and 4 or 5 of them are going to reach the top. My point is any coach with this group will have huge success. On the other hand 1000s of coaches are trying to develop runners at the high school level with not even 1/10th of 1% of the success of for example Henry Phelen.

Really? Sounds like you've got an easy road to the top, then. Go do it.