A case against racing flats.

You're not the first master runner to say that.

I'm 63 and I'm ok with flats even after 45 years of running.

I run in them 75% of the time.

1.) Concrete/asphault contact should be minimized.

2.) Training in racers are not only for the "light." Virtually all humans, if in proper minimalist footwear or unshod, will, by nature or by practice strike the ground very smoothly and efficiently, causing very little impact.

3.) What is your foot like when unshod on grass?

63 year old men wearing racing flats, that's awesome.

Keep it up bro!

Good grief!

What shoes were you wearing in the 50's? I understand they were really not much better than today's bowling shoes.

How did you avoid injury, if you were able to?

What shoes are you wearing now, and what are your vital stats (height/weight/pr's)?

You may be one of those genetically blessed enough to get

away with it.

Good for you.

There is no place around here to run on grass per se.

There is a local 'sort of' park, but the grass is replete with pop-top can lids, broken glass, doggie land mines, etc.

(there is a rumor that someone found a used syringe, but I cannot speak to that from personal experience)

(sigh) I guess I could hit the trails, albeit extremely carefully. If I go there I usually do trails at a snail's pace, and I would prefer to do them alone with no one nearby to distract me. My eyes are glued to the ground perhap 8-10 in front of me. I am very skittish on off-road courses owing to the ankle sprains & some classic thumping tumbles I have suffered. (I refer to those as 'unplanned

blood transfusions'). I have yet to see a path here that is not strewn with hazardous rocks and tree roots.

In sum I really don't care for off road running.

If I could find a nice, clean dirt road I might consider it, but none are around here. The new mini-mansion developments are popping up like dandelions around here, remarkable, and they have caused a lot of disruption with many coyotes and deer becoming common.

Those who can successfully train in minimalist shoes and flats are not "genetically blessed." Most people can and should to minimize injury. If you are unsuccessful, I would ask these questions:

What kind of transition did you make? Was it gradual enough? I spent two years transitioning from 2070s to now training half in Ultimate 81s and half in Asics 15-50 flats.

What shoes do you wear around when not running? If they have a higher heel, you may be eliminating any benefit you gain from training in flats.

I challenge anyone to tell me how you can possibly "minimize contact with asphalt/paved surfaces" if you are running any sort of distance.

Hello people, the roads are really all we got. I have one trail I can run around here, and thats the college cross country course. I can go 5000 meters without repeating. So lets see, how many times would I have to repeat that course this week to get in 75 miles? A quick check of the calendar says 25 times.

And no I am not willing to drive some long distance to another trail. I am not willing to get in my car and drive so that I can run. Running takes up enough time as it is, I work for a living.

Seriously, it really bothers me when people are posting not to run on the roads. Where the hell are you running? And are you running 30 miles a week or what?

I don't know where you live, but in my suburban town there are three reservoirs with a total of 40 miles of trails. If you count the towns bordering here, there are well over 100 miles of trails. However, these trails are covered by snow in the winter. So what do I do? I run the same mileage on roads, with not a problem injury-wise.

Yes, everyone take your advice from a man who views himself as such a feeble, fragile wimp that he is afraid to run on a dirt trail! This unfortunate view parallels nicely with the idea that our feet are feeble, fragile balls of mush at the end of our legs that need contraptions to run for them.

Check this out, or any other legitimate investigation of the effects of shoe-wearing:

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm

pay particular attention to the fact that

• Running in shoes appears to increase the risk of ankle sprains, either by decreasing awareness of foot position or by increasing the twisting torque on the ankle during a stumble.

• Running in shoes appears to increase the risk of plantar fasciitis and other chronic injuries of the lower limb by modifying the transfer of shock to muscles and supporting structures.

You are contributing to your own chronic ankle-spraining by wearing your bulky shoes. The human foot is made to move--let it do its work!

If you are so against training in flats, why do you think you'd be any better off in heavy trainers?? The research is there, and the definite answer is NO you're not better off in trainers. Most of the runners advocating flats suffered many injuries in heavy trainers but have been healthy in flats. This must say something about the benefits of flats. Although it may feel like there's less force on your legs on grass/dirt, research shows there isn't any less force compared to concrete; we adjust our biomechanics in such a way to decrease impact force going from one surface to another.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0636.htm

Also, I read another study that found an equal incidence of injuries on soft verses hard surfaces.

That being said, I've found a HUGE difference between the "advertised flats" you see on the shelves at Running Stores (Asics Tiger Paws, Mayfly's) and the "retro flats" you see on Eastbay (Ultimate 81's). It's understandable to be against the "advertised flats," as these have a thicker, softer midsole than "retro flats," and consequently have more instability. Retro flats with thinner, firm (but flexible) midsoles are much better.

If you're having heel and arch pain when trying flats, that's understandable, as you use your achilles/ankles/calf muscles to a greater extent (NOT because of more force on your legs). It takes time to adjust. Read the following:

"In making the change, runners who currently land on their heels will find themselves using their achilles tendons, calf muscles and those in the arch of their foot much more than before, and there will be some initial soreness, the cure for which is to rest before doing more. Anyone completely new to this technique should begin with simple drills and non-running exercises, such as running on the spot, running backwards, or skipping with a rope. Over time, runners should consider adding a short amount of barefoot running to their weekly routine in order to work the full range of the calf and achilles muscles - but again, this should be done gradually.

As runners let their feet learn to feel the ground and land properly, modern cushioned shoes will quickly begin to feel more like boots, and runners will feel more comfortable in racing flats. Changing shoe type is again something to be done gradually and initially for only shorter training runs because racing flats offer less support and the runner's arch muscles take time to develop."

http://www.triathletes-uk.org/info/running.html

Oh My Poor Feet wrote:

How did you avoid injury, if you were able to?

What shoes are you wearing now, and what are your vital stats (height/weight/pr's)?

You may be one of those genetically blessed enough to get

away with it.

After 5 years of track and 5 of cross country, I ran 18:27 for 5k and a 5:04 1600m as a senior in high school. The summer before that year, I ran up to 70/wk. I am 5'11", weigh just under 165lbs, and look like a shoe-in to play football at FSU/Miami/(insert your favorite college team here). Believe me when I say that I haven't survived on talent.

That said, running barefoot (and, when I must, in flats) is the best thing to ever happen to my running.

Pick the runner whom you think has the prettiest stride. Ask yourself what kind of shoes he or she wore as a child. If you ever want your stride to be that smooth and efficient and powerful, I suggest ditching your shoes whenever possible.

But, as you've probably been training in heavy trainers for a while, you should not do your usual mileage all barefoot next week. I started with barefoot striders after workouts, then moved to cooldowns, then progressively longer runs. Your feet and legs are going to ache for a while - I promise. Don't worry, though. I have never been injured doing this type of training, and I doubt that you will be, either.

I was a cynic...I didnt believe the minimalist...I am now wearing flats..I am no spring chicken..Im 43..70 plus miles this week after switching to flats 2 months ago...my take is that flats wear at least as long as trainers...lighter weight makes it easier to run..my gait has always been pretty neutral..I wear them on trails,track and road...one pair since Boston..I am glad I tried it and learned for myself

XC-Man was pretty dismissive about non-asphalt runners.

The impact force landing is the same. The biggest difference on dirt and grass is that every footstrike is different. If you can't reasonably get to varied surfaces, you're better off running on BAD asphalt than the smooth, perfect stuff. The constant variation is the critical part.

Why don't everyone train in the shoes they are most comfortable in and quit F***ing proselytizing to everyone else.

RIPPY

Okay asphalt and concrete, I can buy that. constant variation.

Thats an answer that no one has really put out yet. People always just say that you should stay away from the roads, or "I never run on anything but grass or trails", when for most of us it is utterly impractical to do that. Maybe if I just run off the road in the gravelly section or maybe if there is grass in that? I know in the past I have pussied out because my pace slows a bit in the rougher section, simply because of the roughness of the terrain.

But I think now that it was a dumb thing to do because in XC the first race is always a shock, I find myself thinking "holy shit running on grass is so freaking hard!" every time.

XC-Man wrote:

Hello people, the roads are really all we got.

I wonder if you are the exception or those of us with plenty of trails to run on are the exception. Growing up in San Jose, I could run 75+% of my miles on trails directly from my parent's house if I wanted to, though I didn't always. With a little driving, I could probably run on different trails for a couple of weeks or more. When I went to UCLA (I think LA is hell now and won't ever live there again), I didn't have a car, but still ran at least 1/3, maybe even 1/2 of my miles off the pavement. Now in Anchorage, I could easily do 100% of my runs on trails if I wanted to and not repeat anything all week.

I actually purposely run on asphalt multi-use trails a couple of times a week, even though there is dirt bordering those paths that many other people run on. If you run on trails all the time, and have to run on pavement for a race or something like that, you will be hurting. It's nice to run on a faster surface sometimes. I think it's good to train on all kinds of surfaces.

As for injury, my personal experience is that it doesn't matter too much what I run on. I have at times run almost all my mileage on pavement or all my mileage on trails. My only injuries in 19 years of running have been two twisted ankles. The first time, I was good to go in a day or two. The second time was kind of a freak accident - I on a trail, but on a smooth section, so that wasn't to blame, but I couldn't run for about a month. That was a dozen years ago, so I have no worries in general. I have worn all kinds of shoes for training and like to mix them up as well, though I wish most of my shoes had lower heels. My Adidas Neptunes feel fine even on asphalt. I have also had two different pairs of shoes last me 4000-4500 miles, so I think it's my running form that keeps me from injury, not shoe cushioning. I think one reason why people are encouraging the minimalist shoes is that it teaches you to smooth out your running form. One of the shoes that lasted me 4000 miles I really hated the first two weeks. It was a super hard shoe that was very jarring when I ran. I was surprised that it seemed to soften up after two weeks, but I'm pretty sure it was my running form adjusting to the shoe. After that, obviously liked the shoe enough to wear it for 4000 miles (almost a year at the time).

Oh My Poor Feet wrote:

What shoes were you wearing in the 50's? I understand they were really not much better than today's bowling shoes.

What shoes are you wearing now, and what are your vital stats (height/weight/pr's)?

When I started, I (we) ran in canvas plimsoles. I always been a forefoot striker. Running in flimsey shoes makes one run right from the getgo, I guess.

I've alwasy run on trails or dirt roads. Some pavement runs when I was training for a marathon.

I have a couple of Adidas Rats, NB RC and Asics racer I run in. In the distant past I really liked Nike wafle trainers although the outsole did not last. It took a tube of shoegoo to make them last 600 miles.

I'm neither feeble nor fragile. Wow. I feel sorry for you.