minimalist shoes for natural overpronator

BROOKS ARIEL S-257 or BROOKS BEAST.

you fool, those are not minimalist shoes at all.

try the brooks racer st

Have someone look at your steps as you walk and run. Often the reason people pronate is because they swing their legs to the midlines of their body rather than straight forward. Tinman

I am fairly flat-footed and am one of those 40-odd year-olds who prefers minimal shoes. I'm no one's idea of an elite, but here goes:

Your foot is supposed to pronate a certain amount. That is not news. Your foot will pronate more if the heel of your shoe is high and the shoe is soft; you will pronate less in a low-heeled shoe and least of all in bare feet. Try running in bare feet (on some nice, cushy grass -- a well maintained soccer field will work, golf courses are ideal) and your stride may start to feel more natural, though you may feel awkward at first. That is how many of us got to low-heeled, minimal shoes. I kept getting knee problems (patellofemoral pain syndrome), kept rehabing the knee with barefoot running, and eventually realized I was better off in barefeet/minimal shoes full time (well, shoes -- I don't live on a golf course). I really think that motion control shoes with orthotics (which is the advice one will almost always get from magazines and many podiatrists) is questionable advice for many, though certainly there are some for whom the Brooks Beast is actually a good idea.

Spider - even in custom orthodics for overpronation, you'll pronate more than you would in flats?

Tinman - I think that might be it, but how does one correct that and run straight?

Flat Feet --

It's slightly more complicated than that, I think. Ask: why is it bad to pronate? I maintain that you are supposed to pronate a certain amount, and doing so is part of an efficient stride. Again, try running barefoot (on grass) as an exercise. You will land more on your lateral midfoot with the heel touching the ground simultaneously or shortly after landing, then roll (pronate) inward as your arch flexes down (then springs back up) and you push off with your toes.

If you put yourself into a firm, well-shaped, tight-fitting orthotic and a solid motion control shoe (or, to take it to a logical extreme, just glue your orthotic to a block of wood and strap your foot in), you will, in fact pronate less with each stride. But does this feel good or help you run fast? No, of course not.

I believe the issue is that if people pronate a lot, the put a rotation on the tibia-fibula an invert the knee, which then can lead to pain at the knee. My point with cushioned shoes and elevated heels is that this will happen more than it would in bare feet or minimal shoes -- and for most of us, the amount of pronation in bare feet won't hurt the rest of our leg, but the excess pronation allowed from the heel lift and cushion will hurt more of our knees. In these cases, the orthotic is there mainly to counterbalance the excess pronation allowed by the shoe. So I threw away both the shoe and the orthotic.

At the other extreme, the fellow with an orthotic and a block of wood will also have problems. He will pronate not a bit, and a fair amount of the kinetic energy from stride motion and torque that was supposed to be absorbed and dissipated by his foot-arch-ankle motion (which includes pronation) will simply be transmitted north to his knee, causing knee problems in this case too. He will also run slower. In other words, locking your foot motionless with each foot-plant isn't that helpful, from my point of view.

Okay, I'll stop ranting.

Thanks spider for the explanation! I understand it better now. Just curious - what type of flats do you run in?

Run on a treadmill looking into a mirror. Observe your leg swing. Make sure it goes straigth forward, not to the midline. You can wear different shoe types and witness what works best for you.

Run on sand with bare feet. Make sure your hips are directly under your shoulders, not behind, dragging. See what the foot pattern in the sand looks like (pigeon toed or otherwise). Correct your mistakes. Run just 60-70m at a time. Walk, rest, repeat. Focus on being fresh during each repetition in order to maximize learning effects for your neural system.

Third, take off your shoes and run on a flat grass surface; football field, soccer field, or park will do. Place your hands behind your lower back, clasping your fingers together. Try running now. You will find that if you are swing your legs toward the midline rather than straight forward, your body will bob back and forth as you run (with the hands behind your back). Focus on smoothing your running pattern so that your do not sway, do not bob. You will find a better leg swing (straight forward) and a more ideal footplant. Pay attention to how you feel when you are balanced. Remember this feeling as you return to your normal running routes and workouts. Tinman

Thanks Tinman! I will try that!

Tinman -- that was interesting; I'll have to try it.

Flat Feet -- I think my basic all-around shoe is the (retro) Nike Waffle Trainer (ran a marathon in 'em two weeks ago). Like several other folks, I also use the (retro) Tiger Ultimate 81. Of "modern" shoes I use mainly racing flats -- I like the NB RC110. I used to use the Asics Gel DS Racer, and I keep it around, but now it feels a bit clunky. The (retro) adidas marathon 80 is also swell.

Like Tinman, I use a treadmill sometimes -- I notice I can get away with a more minimal shoe there than on concrete.

One final trick -- I've found that a local shoe repair fellow can often take away some midsole from a shoe if it's fairly simple. My favorite old, cushy, supportive shoe is the original Brooks Chariot (still available on roadrunnersports for about $40); I had the shoe repair fellow peel of the sole, cut about a half inch of midsole out, reattach the sole (it's a great, old-fashioned, cushy rubber sole) and what was left was a low-heeled, cheap, responsive shoe. Actually did the same thing with a Ultimate 81 to make an "old school" racing flat.

Of course, the price of all this is I can't wander into my local running store wearing these without being branded a freak of nature ( . . . likely would be accurate, but who wants to get branded?)

I just bought a pair of onitsuka ultimate 81s yesterday so hopefully that will be good.

The Reebok Premier has a very flat wide base. If you need flat soles this it the way to go!!!

Old shoes with new midsoles, racing flats for flat feet. My god whats planets are you from.

We are in hesterics in our shop reading your absolute rubbish. Go, now, take yourself off to a good specialist running shop, invest in a good pair of running shoes. Ask them for advice, do not take your running magazine with you. And then, if you do as you are told, all of your problems will be solved. We are the experts, not you, that is why we do the jobs we are doing!!

If you care about your body and your running enough, invest some money in some good shoes, it will be good for you in the long run.

Running shop boy wrote:

Old shoes with new midsoles, racing flats for flat feet. My god whats planets are you from.

We are in hesterics in our shop reading your absolute rubbish. Go, now, take yourself off to a good specialist running shop, invest in a good pair of running shoes. Ask them for advice, do not take your running magazine with you. And then, if you do as you are told, all of your problems will be solved. We are the experts, not you, that is why we do the jobs we are doing!!

If you care about your body and your running enough, invest some money in some good shoes, it will be good for you in the long run.

Read the research, and then you'll understand:

Running shop boy -- I got a kick out of that. Let's see how many people think you're not joking.

I have the same problem with pronation, in fact I pronate more with my left than my right- I get more injuries in my left leg more than my right, and I think it is because of this.

Is there any exercises that will make your arches higher? I don't want to spend money on orthodics, I use falts/ spikes alot andit would negate any reason for using them by having heavy orthodics in them.

Hmmm. I'd suggest going barefoot a lot; but I suspect that if you really want to strengthen your feet, you'll be better served by looking at ballet exercises, rather than running.

On a tangent -- ballet dancers must have the most fabulously strong yet flexible calves, ankles, and feet. Anyone, coach or athlete, ever incorporate ballet training into a running program?

Spider wrote:

On a tangent -- ballet dancers must have the most fabulously strong yet flexible calves, ankles, and feet. Anyone, coach or athlete, ever incorporate ballet training into a running program?

I've spent the summer doing research with this inertial resistance device called the Yo-Yo Machine. Essentially, we're testing the blood lactate responses to doing a seated calf press exercise on this device. We've had a few dancers in our research study, and it is amazing the range of motion they get on the Yo-Yo! In fact, the dancers seem to be the one's that like the Yo-Yo the most. I can't help but think the Yo-Yo Machine might be helpful in improving ankle flexibility and lower leg strength in runners. Traditionally, runners can do standing or seated calf raises, but the benefit of the Yo-Yo is the concentric AND eccentric stretch/force you get. I hope to some day see this device in the weight room.

I agree about the barefoot running. I don't know whether you necessarily can "increase" the amount of arch you have, but I'm sure the barefoot running could at least improve foot and leg strength to counterbalance a discrepancy.

Thx, that's really quite interesting. Let us know how the research goes. I wonder if we could patch over to LetsBallet.com and see what kind of distal lower limb exercise routine they do.