Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs?

kanny wrote:

The Salazar quote where he doesn't know why Ritzenhein hasn't figured out the marathon yet is fascinating to me. Maybe he's the type that just needs to Kenny Moore (or Paul Gompers) it up and run 30 to 36 mile long runs? It wouldn't be for more aerobic work - it'd be for muscular adaptation.

Of course, that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back if he's that injury prone.

It's worked for some greats in the past, but, as you noted, he can be pretty close to the edge at times. Hope he figures it out. Personally, I still see the 5/10k as his thing. Granted he may not be in the top 3 at the games, but, he seems to stand a better chance there than in the marathon. The marathon game has just gone up so much in the past few years.

Yeah I agree. It seems that there are other variables at play besides the aerobic and muscular systems with him. People discount this but these are actually little understood.

Running is really the only aerobic sport where athletes are not doing some really long days. World class bikers do many 6-8 hour rides in training. Swimmers swim more than 4 hours per day. Nordic skiers (probably the most applicable because it is weight bearing) do several overdistance days per year of 4 to 6 hours. I understand the limitations of running and injuries but it seems that several 3 hour+ runs (even bikes or hikes) would help Dathan.

dathan is not a marathoner. He needs to get his butt to the track and bust a sub 27pronto

He lacks muscular endurance so that would be a good way to improve in that area since he can't do really high mileage on a consistent basis. Todays American marathoners seem to train more for the pace they will be or want to run than the distance.

I have always thought a Kenny Moore type program would work well for Ritz.

Ritz can't hold up to the riggers of true marathon training( years of consistent high 120-150 mile weeks). Salazar wonders why Mo and Galen look better while running? Seriously they have been much more consistent without injuries. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to grasp. Personally I think it is a waste of time for Ritz. Run the 5/10 and dabble in the half marathon. Be consistent break 27 lower the 5 down to 12:50, then if you can stay healthy give the marathon another shot.

Riggers? Please tell me you're trolling.

Nobody needs to run 30-milers, save for ultra guys. While I believe Dathan is faster than a 2:09:55 with smarter pacing, he definitely should've struck while the iron was hot back when he ran 12:56, 1:00:00. He had a couple more years of "youth" in his legs to achieve his full potential on the track and maybe cross country. He may look back with regret. I think he makes the Olympic team, but who knows if he can get back to his old form? He's not getting younger.

Ritz will never break 27. He could have done it, but now it is too late...

googg wrote:

Riggers? Please tell me you're trolling.

I applaud your viggerous response, sir.

Ritz got some very bad advice in his pro career.

From tampering with his shoes with duct tape and scissors (mind you when he is employed by a company that will make you custom shoes) to running a distance workout on a track as your first workout post injury to trying to be a marathoner after running 12:56.

By the end of this year he will be 6 minutes off of being competition in the marathon. At 12:56, he is within seconds of being competetive in every international 5k... and that is assuming NO improvement.

Ritz is better/more talented then Rupp. In 2009, he beat Rupp at Worlds off of limited track training. Now Rupp is considered a potential medal threat at the Olympics while we ponder if Ritz will be ready for the trials.

Horribly guided career by delusional advisers thinking he can run 2:05 or 2:06, largely, I would guess, because Hall did it and he thinks he's better then Hall. The thing is, even if he could run 2:05, he would STILL be more competitive at the 5k or 10k at the world stage. Maybe not in 2009, but in 2012 surely.

Included 2009, Ritz is the 16th fastest performer in the 5k in the world at 12:56.3. Ritz is within 4 seconds in the 5k, arguably his second best event to the 10k, of being the 3rd fastest 5ker in the last 3 seasons.

Mark    Athlete   

12:51.2 Eliud Kipchoge

12:51.4 Vincent Kiprop Chepkok

12:52.3 Kenenisa Bekele

12:53.1 Mohamed Farah

12:53.5 Mark Kosgei Kiptoo

12:53.6 Dejen Gebremeskel

12:53.6 Bernard Lagat

12:54.0 Tariku Bekele

12:54.2 Isiah Kiplangat Koech

12:55.0 Edwin Cheruiyot Soi

12:55.1 Lucas Kimeli Rotich

12:55.5 Chris Solinsky

12:55.7 Imane Merga

12:56.0 Josphat Kiprono Menjo

12:56.1 Thomas Pkemei Longosiwa

12:56.3 Dathan Ritzenhein

Not sure it's bad advice (other than changing his form) rather than financial incentive. Nonetheless, he ran those wonderful PRs in 2009 after the London Marathon and the longish, tempo-type training he was doing leading up to it. There's no reason why Ritz couldn't have been training like a marathoner (and even running one in the winter or spring) leading into a track season. But New York didn't fit the bill with a late track season. I hope Ritz can capture his old form this year and next, but he's not getting younger. I fear that he will try to "catch" Rupp and Farah in workouts, risking injury again. Let's hope not.

Not sure he's more "talented" than Rupp. Ritz trained like an animal in high school.

Yes,

and training like an animal is exactly the wrong thing to do.

It seems that Ritz was doing 17 milers when he was training for the 10000m before his debut (which ended up being a collegiate record 27:38). The question is - did he need to run that much overdistance to do well in the 10000m? We'll never really know the true answer to that. At what race distance is an overdistance run necessary (and/or optimal) for a particular individual's makeup? Hopefully that can be answered in my lifetime (the optimal part).

I wonder what the longest long run Dathan has done before. Even Morceli has done a 5 hour run (while he was 14, though - if he is to be believed).

It's amazing to me that Patrick Makau does a weekly long run of 30-38km at around 3min/km at 2km altitude (this is from an interview). Who knows what the exact details of his long runs are, but that's just absolutely ridiculous.

Conto is spot on. Ritz has gotten terrible advice his career. Why would Ritz even think of going to the marathon after 12:56? It's mind boggling.

His speed was apparent long before that 5000 AR when he ran 8:11.74, close to the 2 mile AR at Pre way back in 2007. He should have had the 10,0000 AR in his pocket by 2009.

Money talks..

Maybe but I don't know of any way of proving that. For every guy that gets better with 30 mile runs, there is another that gets worse. People have also suggested things like downhill running and feel others to help deal with issue but it doesn't work for everyone.It could be poor training but he might just not be a marathoner. Some guys take to the event and others struggle.

kanny wrote:

The Salazar quote where he doesn't know why Ritzenhein hasn't figured out the marathon yet is fascinating to me. Maybe he's the type that just needs to Kenny Moore (or Paul Gompers) it up and run 30 to 36 mile long runs? It wouldn't be for more aerobic work - it'd be for muscular adaptation.

Of course, that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back if he's that injury prone.

Sagarin,

I forgot about the form change! So you have:

1) Trying to adjust his form... AFTER 12:56/60:00

2) Doing hard/long track workout, in spikes, 1st workout, indoors

3) Cutting holes and duct taping shoes together (have to always mention when I write this... WHILE EMPLOYED BY NIKE WHO WILL MAKE HIM CUSTOM SHOES AND HAVE THE BEST SHOE TECHNOLOGISTS/PODIATRISTS IN THE WORLD AT THEIR DISPOSAL!)

Clearly going to the marathon was due to financial reasons. I love Mary Witenberg and the NYRR, but offering Ritz a lot of money to run NYC destroyed years of track development, likely more American Records, and possibly international medals in cross and track. Not that they would know it would. They would have had no clue. But hindsight is 20/20.

What is weird with Ritz is he's a 2:09 guy at best, and he has huge belief in himself in the marathon while he is a 12:56 guy and has little belief in himself in the 5k/10k.

Say WHAT? If I ran 12:56 in 2009, I would find it hard to believe I wouldn't be a gold/silver/bronze medal contender in the 5k or 10k in 3 years.

Ritz has repeatedly said (for the last 4 years when he was with Hudson) that "all the tests" and his other PRs point to 2:05 potential.

3 years ago that meant something. Now it doesn't mean much.

Unless the "tests" have been redone to point to 2:03-2:04 potential (sarcasm), his stated 2:05 potential isn't going to get him very far at the international level.

Gotta give him credit for looking out for his family on the monetary front, beating his head against the wall, wasting his best track years trying to earn a buck.

BUT, I would have to think that had he stuck to the track and realized his full potential there, that he would have been worth more, to more marathons, then had he gone when he did.

Ritz is my favorite runner. Ever since I saw him fall at Mt Sac when he was a freshman... fall behind the field by 20 meters, and sprint to catch up (he faded late), I have admired his guts.

I just wish he made better athletic and business decisions.

That's why I have to assume his advisers have mislead him.

The logic does not follow for Ritz. Salazar argues that he did not want to put Rupp in the Marathon because his performance curve was still improving. One can argue that Ritz's performance curve over 5000m was astronomical and who's to say he couldn't have trained towards 12:45?

However, to Salazar's defense, he lives and breathes with these guys. I think he KNOWS Ritz's weaknesses in terms of speed - he is no Mo or Galen - but the kid has that Colorado Buffalo strength. Plus, Ritz was at a different stage in his career, already being an Olympian in the Marathon, placing 9th at the Olympics, beating Ryan Hall.

I think they banked that Ritz could breakthrough with a 2:06 and it just didn't happen.

All that being said, he did not look fast at Stanford the other night. Working way too hard for a 28:21.