Antonio C: quick question about Lopes training

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Why do you think that most of the Kenyan runners that Renato Canova coaches they prefer and they get rich shape condition with long intreval recovery and Renato long intervals fits perfect in that Kenyan runners ?

Because kenyans, most of them if not all, related to middle and long distance events. Only miggt be lesser than 5% of the East Africans (Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Somalia etc) they are FT runners. These monority of exception that are FT african runners are the 800m/1500m runners of the present like Rudisha is or Kaki or Kipketer

Antonio:

This is pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing Lopes' training. I have his training somewhere, right after LA Olympic where he was training for World Cross Country Championships. It's been moved around so much and, recently, we had some flood issue down the basement (not from frozen pipe, not this winter!! ;o)) and now everything is so chaotic!! But I need to sort those things out soon...

One question on your observation on Kenyan runners; I've seen a documentary on those Scandinavian physiologists who went to Kenya and did the physiological studies on Kenyan runners (this was done about 10 years ago???). I thought their conclusion was that there's no significant difference in muscle ratio (ST and FT) between Kenyans (this was done not on elite runners but a whole bunch of young--18YO?--aspiring runners) and Europeans (I think they used either Swedes or Norwegians). Is there actually any study done on, not necessarily on elite runners but average East Africans or is this just your speculation? I wondered if your conclusion was drawn, not because majority of East Africans have ST but more so because the subject from East Africa you are referring to just happened to be good distance runners???

NobbyH,

If we look at it from the point of a coach, would we say they are ST because they respond to Renato long intervals?

0^&=aBHU wrote:

NobbyH,

If we look at it from the point of a coach, would we say they are ST because they respond to Renato long intervals?

Yes, most probably. My question is; is it really true East Africans, in general, have higher % of PEOPLE with ST. Has the research as such been really done to conclude that or is it just a speculation BECAUSE majority of known East Africans (fast runners) who happened to train under coaches like Canova or Rosa who tend to prescribe long intervals and, most likely, those who didn't respond well to that type of training wouldn't make it to the top and, therefore, we never know about them.

This is just a simple question out of curiosity. Or maybe perhaps it may alter the course of training different individuals as Antonio/Hadd had suggested. If it is true that most East Africans are ST type, then long intervals would work well for ST type runners be it African or Japanese or Norwegian. But if Antonio's conclusion was based only on his observation and speculation, then it's a different story--long intervals may work well for either ST type or FT type (I don't know, I'm just throwing a question). Are runners who drop out from Rosa/Canova camp because of the type of training they prescribe FT type runner? Do we really know that--is there actual evidence for that--or is it Antonio's speculation; that's my question.

NobbyH,

My only guess is that there have been fewer great East African 800m runners, as Antonio alluded, and more great distance runners. This doesn't mean that there are fewer FT in the population but maybe only that it is hard to train a FT at altitude?

0^&=aBHU wrote:

NobbyH,

My only guess is that there have been fewer great East African 800m runners, as Antonio alluded, and more great distance runners. This doesn't mean that there are fewer FT in the population but maybe only that it is hard to train a FT at altitude?

Good point; and this is where it's still not science. For example, in Japan, we have good marathon runners but our middle distance absolutely suck!! Is it because of the muscle type or is it more of a sociological thing? Japan won the bronze medal in 4 X 100m in Beijing; granted, we didn't have US or Cuba in the final because they screwed up their baton passing. But Japan's been doing pretty darn good in sprinting recently. So we really can't say Japanese don't have good FT people. I have my own theory on why Japanese such at 800/1500 but one major factor is because of attention marathon gets in Japan. Good "distance" runner in Japan in high school would ALL want to be a marathon runner. I'm sure it's the same with Kenya. I remember, until Ibraham Hussain winning Boston marathon, there weren't many good Kenyan marathon runners. I heard, from a Kenyan runner, that nobody wants to run a marathon (back then) because you don't get as much attention. In track event, 40000 people in the stand will all cheer you on but on the road, you only see the runner for a few seconds. Of course, things changed and the rest is history. I wonder the same sort of mentality is going on in Kenya toward 800m??? I wouldn't know but that's beyond "science" or muscle type, isn't it?

NobbyH,

To dissect what you are saying, I think the study of many nonrunning East Africans would be mostly measuring the middle of the distribution curve from say 40% FT to 60% FT. It would do a reasonable job determining/estimating the distribution of even 20% FT to 80% FT. The problem is the fastest sprinters and distance runners might typically come from the 10% and 90% points of the distribution. To get good numbers there, the number of individuals tested would have to be large.

To me the existence of, for example, Mamede and Kenny Moore, biopsied FT guys who could still run distance suggest it is the training and selection of the runners that matter and not genetics.

0^&=aBHU wrote:

NobbyH,

To dissect what you are saying, I think the study of many nonrunning East Africans would be mostly measuring the middle of the distribution curve from say 40% FT to 60% FT. It would do a reasonable job determining/estimating the distribution of even 20% FT to 80% FT. The problem is the fastest sprinters and distance runners might typically come from the 10% and 90% points of the distribution. To get good numbers there, the number of individuals tested would have to be large.

To me the existence of, for example, Mamede and Kenny Moore, biopsied FT guys who could still run distance suggest it is the training and selection of the runners that matter and not genetics.

And I would totally agree with you. Even the testing being done, there are cases like Frank Shorter's VO2Max being tested at around 71. It may very well be so, but he himself said something to an extent that, because he doesn't like running on treadmill, that threw off his form and might have contributed to the "poor" result. And there's a case of Don Kardong with ST/FT ratio of almost 50% each and Jeff Galloway with 90% ST and Don was telling me, laughing, that he almost always got out kicked by Galloway at the end of a race!! I'm really curious if any muscle biopsy conducted on Toshihiko Seko who was known for his devastating kick at the end of a marathon, having been a high school middle distance star, and known to run up to 50-miles in one session!! This was actually a topic of a conversation with Don; is it because he had high % of ST that he reacted well to a training like 50-miler; or did he have to do a workout like that because he had higher % of FT? I don't know and it would be interesting to find out...

Whoops, before someone jumps on me, when I said its not genetics I meant it's not inherited FT/ST percentages.

"is it because he had high % of ST that he reacted well to a training like 50-miler; or did he have to do a workout like that because he had higher % of FT? I don't know and it would be interesting to find out..."

The other similar question about training is which parts of a runner's training were absolutely necessary for them to be good and which parts were only added after the fact to see if adding them would make them great?

A story about Mamede adding more 90 minute runs near the end of his career comes to mind.

Antonio Reader wrote:

\"Why do you think that most of the Kenyan runners that Renato Canova coaches they prefer and they get rich shape condition with long intreval recovery and Renato long intervals fits perfect in that Kenyan runners ? \"

--------------------------------------------

I\'m assuming by the long intervals you are speaking of the workouts like?

- 3x3000

- 1x3000+1x2000+400s.....

- 6x2000

Great thread input!

Yes you got it. But that your 3000s, 2000m, mile workouts, are good for special intervals, and race pace specifics intervals but if the runner target event is middle distance race pace long intrevals are 400s, 500s, 600s, 800s, 1000s

But also the use of fast continous runs (LT and LTp) is a predicate from ST runners like most kenyans and east africans are.

0^&=aBHU wrote:My take on it is that Mamede is about as much a sprinter, with 47 second 400m speed, as you can possibly train to run 10k. Silva on the other hand is about as much of a ST that can run 3:30.X for 1500m which likely requires 49-50 second 400m speed

mamede may have started off as a FT guy, but by the time of '84, there probably wasn't that much FT left ( probably turned to ST )

might be of interest to you, but a prelim line of fit for him in his wr shape mighta been :

~ 52.0 / 1'49.7 -> 3'35.4 , 7'32.2 , 12'59.9 , 27'10.9

he likely was very close to 13-flat shape that day

lopes did it much more off endurance

a prelim line of fit for him that day mighta been

~ 53.0 / 1'51.3 -> 3'37.7 , 7'35.3 , 13'03.2 , 27'12.7

main difference between 2 was possibly 1s over 400 speed & ~ 1.5s over 800, with proportionate gap gradually closing between 2 with increasing race distance, but not quite level by 10k ( if such a thing as a 11k track race existed, lopes wouda likely been the winner )

Hello Nobby

I hope that i might be polite since we smoke the pipe of peace !

This ST and FT issue and the need of training individualisation is one issue i did debate quite a lot with with John Hadd in private and as you know he died.

First i don´t foget that on other thread that you post and that my nickname is "kaddafii" you did doubt about the of my and John´s attempt of charaterization by fiber type because i got no evidence by biopsy. This is not true either.

Just one parenthesis. What you said on that board (the need of biopsy to define the FT and ST tendency is something i taugh it´s a your curious request that comes from you that i tend to think that in most training aspects and run methodology as well i see you as one "feeling-base type" (smiling). Well i don´t want to go to that Lidy*** discuss...Well you didn´t knew if i have the biopsises or i don´t but on hyour will to prove that i´m wrong...(smilling). Actually you ask for scientific evidence, physiologic prove, it´s all right ! But from You Nobby ? (smile)...

Relate to your question. I say that both, the fiber type and the altitude effect plays a role on east africans. Of course that te altitude plays, because know young and thinn kenyans that are just 17.30 5k with no major reason to be so slow, but just because they are Kenyans from Mombassa (Ucity atg sea leval) and not Rift Valey.

However when i analyse what was been the "friendly" distance training approach from different training systems i guess that it´s not by chance that the japanese for instance they rarely or never did get a very fast/speedy runner as well as the "tons" of mileage that fits well on one japanese runner or that fited on wang Jungia (not relateing with drugs or every other Asian "yellow" type, in my interpretation, and also the phychologic motivation for those people to love long distance training is due to innate (read fiber) ability for that runners train mileage volume and long intervals.

Of course that my analysis is quite empiric if we consider sstematic studies. But let me tell you. I don´t trust in saltin for several reasons that would be too long to write that in detail. But the prime reason of the study you mean is by waht you say "the universe he chooses they are not world top classes, not in Kenya or in Scandinavia, and as you know this is good for the unversities and to edit scientific articles but got no major evidence.

Finnaly long intervals (mostly done at race pace) fits well in everyone, not just east africans or japanese or asians or portuguese. However as John Hadd starts to prove (see the graphics and Hadd conclusion from that article on ouir "2 kind of runners" the FT runner works best with training with more/accentuate the anaerobic percent and short intrevals rather than the ST type fits better with LTp (fast lactate threshold continous runs). I got some private material from John about that fiber issue that i guess he didn´t publish.

You see, i´m more a man of methodolgy, and i got aware that different runners do react diffrent to diffrent kind of training with the condition that the distance training approach for every runner is extensively approach, long, volume, mostly aerobic. But mostly of the training individualisation got to do with different types. As i´m from Portugal and we have been in collonies and we got a mix of runners and a population from different parts of the world, from evefry continent, it´s not hard for me by obervation, to relate different "types" to different on the ancestors. Portugal is a living laboratory for this propose.

Then, when i start to share this my idea with John, it´s when he said he got near the same conclusion, and as he was a man of science as well as a coach he tried to systematized what i know empiric. Then we got pairs of runners people running during the ssme period and with different training profiles from the sasme country. Lopes-Mamede is a evident pair for me. Steve Ovett-Seb Coes is another one. Shorter-Prefontaine is another. Recently Webb-Dan Ritz is another.

I got no scientific ambition. I´consider myself a methdologist, and it´s by the methodology that i got most of my conclusions...and my doubts as well ! I guess that without go out from the methodology we might solve the fiber type question, or if we don´t, at leat we might take some rich contain to the day-by-day training.

What i don´t want is to m ove this debate to the question Rosa versus Renato versus James Li versus other different training method.

ps1 - we´ve got a rich scientific article from Peter Snell about the fiber type and the VO2max that can be one more tool and a starting point to get some curious conclusions.

ps2 - i might say something more about what i know about this, but i also have another neighbour thread here near to me that i want to participate, because i did write something to reply to rekrunner.

ventolin^3

You and your formula...

What you say. Mamede was able to run 400 in 46secs ! His junior 400m pb is 47secs. he was been 3rd in the junior european champs on late 60s.

Qickly answers.

I bet that most kenyans and every est african distance runner is ST mostly relate to the caucasian europeans, but i have no finished scientific evidence.

Second. I don´t trust on saltin for that and some more issues. Scientific artcles are weak.

Third. I don´t accept that you personalize this debate pontuate a few situations like the runners that quit out from Rosa and/or Canova. I guess that if that happens that got nothing with fibers, but with other different reasons out of physiology.

Finnaly. I wish that your life will get back to the daily normal routine.

Antonio Cabral wrote:ventolin^3

You and your formula...

What you say. Mamede was able to run 400 in 46secs ! His junior 400m pb is 47secs. he was been 3rd in the junior european champs on late 60s.

bernie

'01 :

~ 47.7/1'43.0 -> 3'26.1 , 7'20.6 , 12'49.4 , 27'13.7

'06 :

~ 49.3/1'45.3 -> 3'28.9 , 7'22.8 , 12'48.9 , 27'01.5

'11 :

~ 51.6/1'48.7 -> 3'33.2 , 7'27.0 , 12'50.3 , 26'49.3

Thank you for your continued input on this thread.

The use of longer intervals makes sense as the more time that I run I don't feel strong until I put in some longer (at least 1 mile) intervals even if a little slower than my actual race pace. I've experimented with other methods but keep going back more to this form of training. One workout that has really left me feeling strong in the past, and which is pretty much right from Jack Daniels book which is essentially 2 x 2 mile (LT) +1x800 (I) + 2x400 + 1x 2 mile(LT). This workout is not magical, just an example of what workouts really seem to help me. This workout is not magical, but just an example of what I am finding truly helps get me in shape.

Just jumping in and running typically 400/200 workouts seems to give me absolutely no indicator of what type of shape I'm in, nor get me into better shape. Unless I'm doing them in more of the manner that Mamede did them such as 400/100.