Renato: can caucasians compete?

I agree with the point about health problems and the need to work and not having time to train being significant limitations for East African runners. Having spent some time in Eldoret, it is clear that HIV, Malaria, Tuberculosis, ect. substantially reduces the number of potential runners. However, this is likely less than the number of people who work very long hours from a young age and never train or have any clue that they may be a good runner.

It is also clear that the natural talent of East Africans is a huge factor. Look at the number of "western" elite runners who are East African and moved here at a young age" Meb, Abdi, Farah, ect. Given the relatively tiny population of East Africans here, I wonder if it may actually be better to have East African genetics and grow up here versus grow up in Kenya.

That all being said, I believe that the US could be competetive if running was a major sport here. Look at a school like York. Usually one of the best teams in the country, frequently with a good national runner (eg. Jack Driggs) and occasionally a top runner (Sage, Bakken). I don't think talent is any better there than anywhere else. If the popularity of running and quality of coaching was as good at every school, I think that the US would be the best running nation in the world, despite the better average talent of East Africans.

One factor that hasn't been discussed is body weight. At a buck fifty and 6 feet, I'm thin as a rail by American standards, but I'm 20 pounds heavier than an E. African runner who is my height. And most top E. African runners in the longer distances aren't my height but are 6 inches shorter and even lighter yet. I'm not saying it's everything, but added weight is a big deal, especially over the marathon distance.

Dated but solid analysis:

http://isteve.com/addtrack.htm

http://www.isteve.com/gendrgap.htm

noski wrote:

One factor that hasn't been discussed is body weight. At a buck fifty and 6 feet, I'm thin as a rail by American standards, but I'm 20 pounds heavier than an E. African runner who is my height. And most top E. African runners in the longer distances aren't my height but are 6 inches shorter and even lighter yet. I'm not saying it's everything, but added weight is a big deal, especially over the marathon distance.

i don't think this is talked about enough.

Dr. Books wrote:

Lance-a-lot, what is wrong with you? What are you talking about?

Believe it or not, people want to hear Canova's opinions...not yours. He wrote what he wrote, and I'm not surprised people take umbrage with your trying to 're-interpret' what he said. The man himself just weighed in a few posts ago! He isn't a child, he doesn't need your help explaining things.

I doubt I am exaggerating when I say that NOBODY cares what you have to say on this topic.

Rather unfair! .... anyone & everyone is entitled to post.

The points made by Sir L. were (as he has stated) his opinions ... he was not making a criticism of Rednato's post ... merely adding some additional comment/context. To me, they sounded fairly well reasoned thoughts.

Clearly YOU cared enough about what he had to say in order to make the comments above.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

searching for questions wrote:

I like how 'sir lance-alot' tries to just straight put words in renato's mouth.

And I like how you apparently are just straight unable to read or comprehend, and then use that lack of ability to straight make shit up.

This is what I wrote as far as what Renato said:

"Renato said that East Africans are better (at distance running) because of a combination of reasons, ONE OF WHICH IS TALENT."

Did he say that or not? Since you might not be able to read, I will answer: yes, he did say that. So I did not put any words in Renato's mouth. I basically quoted him and that gave my own explanation on why what he said might be the case.

Comprende? Happy? Great.

Time for a nap.

Neil wrote:

Time for a nap.

Go ahead, no one is stopping you junior. The adults can handle this one without you.

(And I understand, having to read and comprehend complete sentences must be exhausting for someone who is used to only communicating in 3 word text message phrases or Facebook posts )

CoachB wrote:

However, none of this explains the disappearance of the white athlete (as pointed out by Renato). Just 20-30 years ago, plenty of white athletes (Cram, Coe, Ovett, Scott, Cacho, Silva) were running times that were tops in the world and would still be very competitive today. I cannot believe that evolution would have done us in in that short of a time span. Therefore, we have to consider sociological factors in explaining the dominance of East Africans.

Whites ARE still performing among tops of the world in middle distance. These are the results from Deagu

CAUCASIANS MEDAL COUNT

100-400: 3

hurdles: 3 + Liu Xiang + AOY Sally Pearson

800/1500: 5 of 12 total medals

> 1500...... 1 (a Russian steepler)

USA had one of its best WC performances ever (distances particularly) and distance medals were ALL middle distance athletes. Jenny, Morgan, and Lagat were training all/part of the time at altitude, and none of these people are high mileage athletes. If you go back to the so-called "bad" 1990s when people didn't "run enough mileage", Lynn Jennings, Johnny Gray, and Rich Kenah all won medals, and Jim Spivey won one in 1987.

What I see in Renato's comments in cold, hard facts is the most basic of coaching rules: Concentrate on your strength.

What I see now is people like Kiplagat are running high (for MD) mileage, not because high mileage is better than low mileage, but because he's at altitude and Renato says high lactate tolerance is dangerous.

It's not hard to see that the reason caucasians aren't quite having the same results in MD is that they got away from what they used to do (see training programs of Coe and Cram). As Renato says, the British high-lactate and sprint training is the STRENGTH of western athletes. I see too many HS coaches that got caught up in the "running boom" marathon stuff, and that is playing right into the hands of the Africans.

Go back to the training of Coe, Cram, Ryun, Gray, Cacho, Silva (speed-based) and you will get the same results with the same talent. And that talent is sufficient to win against today's Africans.

For westerners, leave the high mileage marathon stuff to hobby joggers and people who don't have enough talent (too slow).

Africans dominate running evets because they are specialized for running. east Africans for distance, west Africans for sprints. Other population reside at altitude, are poor (think South America) and still can not compete with the Africans. Despite being poor and raised in altitude the build of a typical Andes mountain inhabitant is obviously different from an East African.

The 800m which requires, speed and endurance can always be by influenced by people from any back ground becuase of the non specific requirements. 1500m has a touch of the same. Further than 1500m requires freakish aerbics/mechanics.

Its not a big deal to acknowledge that some peoples are better suited for certain physical activities than other peoples. This is called diversity. You'll probably never see a Kenyan baseball/football player. However there are a ton NFL player from West Africa

Interesting discussion...one factor that I believe to be worth mentioning and echoes others posts is that there are thousands of good runners in the US that are never given an opportunity to run. As children they migrate to a variety of sports and may never touch a track in thier life. How many professional athletes in the US would be great runners? How many potential great athletes/runners as children do not run because they are drawn to other sports? I have seen many athletic kids that may be great distance runners. In East Africa, one of the few ways to be successful and make a good living is to run fast. In the US, there are infinite opportunities for making a living. The athletes are here, just playing another sport or sitting in front of the TV.

I dont think there are many college/pro football/basketball/baseball/hockey or whatever players that would have made world class distance runners.

Name one

I wouldn't say "not given the opportunity," I would say "don't take the opportunity." As I said before though, I agree with your general premise that, despite much better talent for the average person, the US would dominate running if it were as popular as basketball or football.

noski wrote:

One factor that hasn't been discussed is body weight. At a buck fifty and 6 feet, I'm thin as a rail by American standards, but I'm 20 pounds heavier than an E. African runner who is my height. And most top E. African runners in the longer distances aren't my height but are 6 inches shorter and even lighter yet. I'm not saying it's everything, but added weight is a big deal, especially over the marathon distance.

Great post above!

The correlation between body weight and elite marathon performance is something that seems oddly taboo on this site, given the obsession with the decidedly politically incorrect topic of race and performance.

My guess is it's because so many here have had first hand experiences with anorexia and it's devastating consequences.

Lance-a-lot is right. Completely agree. It is the abundance of natural talent (ability) that sets those with East African heritage apart from the rest of the world.

If nothing else just look at their natural light weight and long achilles tendons!

Pat Man

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

I wouldn't say "not given the opportunity," I would say "don't take the opportunity." As I said before though, I agree with your general premise that, despite much better talent for the average person, the US would dominate running if it were as popular as basketball or football.

I wonder how much Kenya would dominate distance running if running was as popular as soccer.

Okay, we agree on several main points in your first two paragraphs. However, we don't agree on this:

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

If the popularity of running and quality of coaching was as good at every school, I think that the US would be the best running nation in the world, despite the better average talent of East Africans.

In running, the cream rises to the top. No matter how much we focused on running, we would not have 8 guys capable of 2:04 or better (which is what Renatao says Kenya has right now). We very well might not even have ONE guy. Hall is a freakish talent, with huge desire and is not prone to injury, and has God on his side (;-) ). And he is over 2 minutes behind their best guys.

In 2009 or 10 (I forget which, I think 2010), I counted 100 Ken/Eth (combined) (maybe 99) runners who ran under 2:10 for the marathon. The US and Japan combined had like 2 or 3. Think about that. And Japan LOVES the marathon, and puts lot of focus on it. THAT is the talent differential right there between E. Africa and the rest of the world.. And that gap in performances could be reasonably shrunk with a huge focus on distance running in the US, but I highly doubt, no matter what the efforts, it could ever be completely eliminated. (and since there will never be distance running Manahttan project, we will never be able to test your hypothesis anyway)

The US is enjoying a distance running renassiance with great coaches, athletes and technology spurring us on to performances many (like me) did not think possible. We have one in a million talents like Hall, Ritz, Solinsky, Webb, and Rupp at their peaks right now. Let's see any of them take home even ONE medal next year before we decide that the US could ever fully match kenya in distance running with ideal circumstances. Until we even achieve that first step, it seems silly to hypothesize about the potential of being better than them overall.

What percentage of kids with running talent actually run? I have no idea but say 1/20, which seems realistic from when I was in school. If all of those kids ran, it would follow that we would have 20 runners like Hall, 20 like Rupp, ect. Obviously that won't ever happen, but if so, I think we would be extremely competitive on the world scene.

Very few east Africans are as talented as Rupp or Hall. The talent is there in the US, just doing something else.

for now anynow it is just a 'pip dream' and a much of "what ifs"! I don't need science or experts to tell me what I see with my own eyes, common sense is all I need....but go a head beat this to death and drive yourselves crazy, open your eyes...can't you see (to tell)the differences? Not the color, the build, the form, the mechanics, all that stuff together makes a long distance runner machine!.....Most Causasians(whites) just ain't build right!