People running long runs too fast are silly

The problem isn't how fast the runs are. The problem is their goal pace is too ambitious. I ran some marathons when I wasn't running that many miles. If I did a pretty hard 13 mile run, I would add 30 seconds per mile to that for marathon pace. Essentially I was basing my marathon pace off of what I could do in a workout, not what I could do in a race.

There was a thread a while back about a guy who couldn't quite break 3 hours and had run quite a few marathons. He was doing some of his long runs at 3 hour marathon pace. What he needed to do was be able to run those long runs about 10 seconds FASTER than marathon pace. On race day, marathon pace would have felt easier and he would have been able to finish strong and reach his goal.

This is all dependant on the miles you run. The more you run, the slower you can do the long runs in relation to goal marathon pace. Since I am in better shape now, there is no way I could do a hard 13 mile training run 30 seconds faster than marathon pace. It would be closer to 10 seconds.

I agree with the second poster. That's been my experience as well.

So a guy trying to run a marathon at 8:45 pace does his long runs at 8:15 pace? That's like a half marathon race every long run.

Good thread.

What pace should a Master who's goal marathon time is 2:50 run his long runs?

What about if the goal time were 2:45?

2:40?

Junk Master wrote:

Good thread.

What pace should a Master who's goal marathon time is 2:50 run his long runs?

What about if the goal time were 2:45?

2:40?

Good Question, I want to know, too.

Pfitzinger says 20% slower than MP until the last 5 then 10% slower than MP.

Daniels vdot usually shows about a minute difference between MP and easy/long run pace.

McMillan shows a pace of 5-10% slower than MP.

So it looks like anywhere from 5-20% is okay. I have yet to find a legitimate program for weekend runners that has long runs run faster than MP.

Correction: McMillan shows 8:30 to 9:30 for a 3:30 marathoner. So that is about 7-20% slower than MP.

The difference between race pace at various distances converges as the athlete's fitness improves. So, thirty seconds faster than marathon pace may not be their HM pace (assuming the athlete is not racing workouts).

First you have to differentiate between "trying" to run a marathon and actually running a marathon. The answer is no because that person would likely be able to run a half marathon faster than what the predictor from his marathon pace says.

It is also dependant on how far your long run is and how often you are running them.

If you aren't running a whole lot of mileage and you can only race a half marathon at 8:15 pace, you probably won't make your marathon goal. Again it is all dependant on how much mileage and how you are running that mileage.

That is why it is ridiculous to say whether a pace on a certain run is too fast or too slow. There are way too many variables depending on how they are training, what the goal for each long run is, and how good of overall shape they are in.

As far as long runs at faster than marathon pace there are many more ways to train than a simplistic schedule with calculated paces.

I just did a 17 mile run with 2 mile warmup, a 10 mile progression going from 10 seconds slower than marathon pace to 35 seconds faster than marathon pace for an average of 11 seconds faster than marathon pace and then did 5 more miles at 30 seconds slower than marathon pace. The total run was 7 seconds slower than marathon pace but at least 7 miles of the run was faster than marathon pace. How could any program calculate that and tell you what kind of pace is appropriate? It was a very hard run and comparable to race effort for a few miles but that run was what I needed at that time in my training. The last 17 mile run I did, I was a little tired so I went out easy and progressed as the run went on and ended up 37 seconds slower than marathon pace for the whole run.

I guess I still don't see the value in running long runs that much faster or even at mp for 18-20 mile training runs. I think it leaves your raw out on your training runs.

Timetogo wrote:

I guess I still don't see the value in running long runs that much faster or even at mp for 18-20 mile training runs. I think it leaves your raw out on your training runs.

First, you didn't understand what I posted. My initial post was about a 13 mile run, not 18-20. There is a huge difference between those distances just as there is between 20 and 26.2.

If the long run is the emphasis of your training, then make each one you do a little longer or a little faster leading up to the race. If the emphasis is on other days and the long run is just time on your feet, then the pace doesn't really matter.

If you really want to learn something interesting from McMillans charts, race pace for a 20 mile is only 8 SECONDS slower than race pace for the whole marathon.

That is why it is so important to really know what you are capable of and not go out too fast on race day.

Okay, a lot of variables at play here obviously:

1. The runner's background (experience marathoning, average weekly mileage per year, number of years running, FT/ST muscle fiber ratio, etc.)

2. Goal marathon pace versus actual marathon pace fitness (is the goal pace reasonable based on half marathon race performances and training base).

For someone running under 2:30 in the marathon a run of even 13 miles at current MP pace is going to be very taxing...near lactate threshold pace/effort and not to mention the skeletal/muscular fatigue is relatively high.

For someone running a 3 -4 hour marathon a 13 to 20 mile long run is quite doable although running shorter and slightly faster workouts may have more bang for the time spent. The 20%-25% of weekly mileage for the length of the long run is a constant that we can and should use though.

Taking Daniels and Pfitzinger's guidelines into account (and heck Hansons marathon plan for mortals) the PACES for easy aerobic days and long run workouts have a rather large variance. Essentially every training variable here with pace/effort is exponential. The percentages faster than marathon pace should vary accordingly (shall not be constant) and also be considered with the length of the run and the weekly mileage of the athlete.

SO...just run by feel!

In a nutshell I would agree that most people run their easy days too hard. Also, for the beginner marathoner just getting their mileage up and staying injury free (along with some shorter and faster lactate threshold workouts) will bring the marathon time down rather than trying to hit race pace or faster on every run.

I appreciate your example, but I am guessing you are not a 4 hour marathoner as referenced in my op. Faster runners absolutely do different types of all runs, including long.

This is a good discussion though, thanks for your feedback.

Good stuff.

Timetogo wrote:

I appreciate your example, but I am guessing you are not a 4 hour marathoner as referenced in my op. .

I ran 3:10-3:20 when I was running marathons so not much difference to 4 hours.

I have trained all sorts of ways since I started back running a few years ago. I ran every day, I ran every other day, I ran 3 days a week doing a race, speedwork and tempo with the other days xtraining. I have run between 25 and 80 miles per week depending on what I was training for. I have run all my runs slow with a couple faster runs during the week. I have run all my runs hard with a couple days completely off during the week. The end result is that as long as I train as hard as I am capable of, my racing times are pretty similar regardless of which plan I am using. Of course the plan has to be specific to the distance I am racing.

The last 6 months I have been doing longer races (half marathons to 16 mile trail runs so I somehow transitioned into running twice a week but averaging over 15 miles per run. I'm breaking all kinds of running rules. My long run is 55-65% of my weekly mileage and I usually run pretty hard every time out because I have 2 to 3 days to recover. Even when my legs are sore, I can do hard hour workouts on the eliptical in between the days I am running. It keeps running interesting and after 8 years since my last marathon, I am thinking about running another one.

Everyone is different. You have to know your body. I do a lot more tempo work than most people recommend but it gets me in shape very quickly. I mitigate it by keeping mileage lower. Then once I'm where I want to be I increase mileage and pull back a bit on tempo runs. Always works for me but I know it doesn't necessarily work for others.

I'm going to try to run a marathon off just intense short distance training and see how it goes. Nothing over 5 miles hard.

Just so I am clear, if my target is 6:20 pace for a marathon (~2:46) I should run my long runs between 6:39 and 7:46 pace?

That seems like a rather wide variance for the "optimal" pace even considering issues such as FT/ST, MPW, etc. 7:46 seems like walking to me while 6:39 for a 20 would be a tough workout.

According to McMillian for a 2:45 marathon you should run long runs from 6:48-7:48....I've done 19,20,21,22 miles from (6:45-7:08) Pace. Should I lower my goal of 2:45 (first marthon)? Averaging 53 mpw for 16 weeks now.