Great WSJ Article Praising NYC For Ditching Pacemakers - A Runner and His…Entourage?

If they're going to do that, they'll need to dump the money for time bonuses into the placing prizes. Maybe make the place money deeper too.

56345634563456 wrote:

If they're going to do that, they'll need to dump the money for time bonuses into the placing prizes. Maybe make the place money deeper too.

even better: primes.

have a cash prize at pre-determined spots. Maybe at 5k have a thousand bucks up for the first to cross the line. Then at 15k, then at 30k, and then maybe a huge one at 40k, like 5 to 10 grand.

Can you imagine 3-4 guys (or more) attacking each other like crazy to hit 40k first?

Be pretty exciting to watch.

I don't have a problem with NY not using pacemakers if that's the way they want to run their race, but why do they feel the need to denigrate races that want to use them?

There isn't anything less "real" about racing with pacemakers - if anybody thought that Berlin (or Frankfurt for that matter) was a "snoozefest" then they simply don't appreciate what it takes to run that fast. Perhaps Cacciola should look at the number and length of the threads about Berlin 2011 on this site if he thinks that the race was boring?

If the winning distance is an indicator of a "boring" race, then surely Cacciola must think that Wanjiru in Beijing was also a "snoozefest" - after all Wanjiru ran with his Kenyan teammates (aka pacemakers), broke away at 36km and ran alone into the stadium, finishing almost before Gharib entered the stadium; did that bore you Rojo?

In short, NY isn't a fast course, but it has a lot more than that going on; perhaps Mary Wittenberg could show some class - she shouldn't need to denigrate others to promote her race.

I think shorter track races--like the 800--can be exciting when rabbited and someone's going for a record. But I agree, rabbited marathons aren't as exciting.

Sorry I tune in when there's a possibility of a world record. It's much more exciting for me and most people hence the way things are. I personally can't think of anything more wasteful than if a guy is in world record shape and wins a "tactical" race in a slower time.

New York is not a course that is a potential world record course so no pacemakers may be really good idea to liven up the race. I have no problem with pacemakers for record attempts. I don't think any distance records have been set solo. Did Roger Bannister cheat because he used pacemakers to break the four minute mile?

If NYRR want to "move away from time as the steward of the sport"... then why is there such an emphasis on the PRs of each runner in the NYC marathon bio pages?

Example:

Geoffrey Mutai

Kenya

• 2011 Boston Marathon champion (2:03:02—fastest marathon in history)

• 2010 Fortis Marathon Rotterdam runner-up (2:04:55)

• 2010 Berlin Marathon runner-up (2:05:10)

• 2010 RAK Half-Marathon winner (59:43)

Yeah, we don't care about times at the NYRR, but we're going to list Mutai's times in three different marathons and a half marathon too.

http://www.nycmarathon.org/pro_men.htm

http://www.nycmarathon.org/pro_women.htm

Nice article, but the Ken Young quote on runners today being "too lazy" to set their own paces seemed to me to be cranky and out of place. The top runners in the world are lazy? Maybe they are just incentivized differently.

There is already one semi-official intermediate prize:

After passing the Williamsburg Bridge, one of three bridges that link Brooklyn to Manhattan, the course enters Greenpoint, New York’s largest Polish community. The Pulaski Bridge marks the halfway point of the marathon and the entrance into Queens. The first male and female runners to cross the bridge (and complete the race) receive a special award from the Polish Embassy.

(page 38)

It is not an either/or decision. You can have pacemakers setting a blazing pace and also have multiple athletes who are capable of running very fast. Khannouchi at London (vs. Geb and Tergat) or the Kibet/Kwambai dual at Rotterdam come to mine. Heck even Tergat raced his pacer to the line.

If NYCM was able to produce a world record course-wise, they would not put such an emphasis on "challenging athletes one-to-one"...

The principle of the city is built on "bigger, better, faster"!

First, I heartily second the idea of "do it like cycling" that we should add primes, this would be a great added point of interest.

Second, I completely agree with Deleuze that top runners today do not use pacers out of laziness, but because this is often where the money is.

Something else that annoyed me from the article was the insinuation near the end that Meb is not necessarily worse than marathoners who have run almost six minutes faster, he has just focused on developing a different set of skills. In particular, the discussion of Meb doing fartleks in training might suggest to those who don't know better that 'championship racers' don't do stuff like this and thus can't handle changes in pace.

I'm a fan of Meb, but that's BS. Makau (or about 5 other Kenyans) are still a huge favorite over Meb in any conditions, with any pacing. Harder courses and uneven pacing will give Meb a better chance the same way they do for any underdog - by creating more that can go wrong for the favorites.

Two thoughts:

1. Mary Wittenberg has no other choice. She could hire the best pacemakers in the world, they would never get anywhere close to the WR. So she comes up with this "it's all about racing" blah blah. Of course it is exciting to watch but so is a time trial. Taking Berlin as an example this year is not really fair. Makau was looking for a decision early, that was unfortunate for the excitement but usually such move happens later, around 20-22 miles.

2. I believe there is a place for both and without pacemakers in Berlin, Rotterdam, Paris and Frankfurt, we would not realize just how much better/faster the Marathons has got over the past years.

One more thought:

in terms of WMM, if you want to run a tactical race in the spring, you run Boston, otherwise London.

In the fall, if you wan to run a tactical race, you run NYC, otherwise Berlin.

Chicago is the real loser here. Somewhere in between, a lot of pacers but not fast enough for WR times.

Will I agree time trials are a lot less interesting, I also agree with others that Mary doesn't have much choice and is doing a nice piece of rationalizing here.

NY is not fast.

I wonder about how to make incentives proper here, time bonuses that are tied to places (eg, first sub 2:06 gets $XXX) probably are still needed to avoid some of the very slow races they have had in the past.

Stating the obvious wrote:

time bonuses that are tied to places (eg, first sub 2:06 gets $XXX) probably are still needed to avoid some of the very slow races they have had in the past.

I agree. More than for the men this is needed for women.

What makes a race exciting isn't the presence of absence of rabbits.

Has anyone seen the Berlin 2003 Marathon, where Paul Tergat set a world record, beating rabbit Sammy Korir to the line, by one second? Chicago 2010? Rotterdam 2009? 2010? Or even London, 2011?

By comparison to any of these great races, the 2011 World Championship Marathon, the year's most high profile non-rabbited race so far, was a boring affair.

There are boring time-trials, like the Dubai Marathon. But just because a race is fast and includes pacemakers, it isn't boring. Mary Wittenberg, with her knowledge, should know better.

It's the depth of the elite field that makes a marathon exciting. Simple.

sub3over40 wrote:

Did Roger Bannister cheat because he used pacemakers to break the four minute mile?

Neither the article nor any commenter here has said that it's cheating.

Total Knob wrote:

If the winning distance is an indicator of a "boring" race, then surely Cacciola must think that Wanjiru in Beijing was also a "snoozefest" - after all Wanjiru ran with his Kenyan teammates (aka pacemakers), broke away at 36km and ran alone into the stadium, finishing almost before Gharib entered the stadium; did that bore you Rojo?

Did you actually watch the Beijing race? Wanjiru didn't spend much time behind either of the other two Kenyans in the race. They certainly weren't his pacemakers.