Winter Lydiard Base Building for the Injury-Prone

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the payoff from the Lydiard base approach.

However, don't be surprised if your "stage 3" is too ambitious this time around. You're talking about doubling your mileage/time running. That's no joke, and if you've been injury prone I wouldn't be surprised if something close to the middle level is all you can handle the first time around. It's still a nearly 50% increase - so you will get great results just from that alone. Of couse, you could adjust well and handle the 9hours before winter is over.

I think it's hard to answer your question. You're really just going to have to see how you feel and bump it up slowly as you feel ready for it. It may take you 3 weeks or 6 weeks at each step... there really is no way for us to know.

Another thing you might try is to bump it up for smaller, 2-3 day segments (rather than an entire week), and then reduce it back to where you were to recover a bit before bumping it up again.

For example: 30, 45, 30, then bump to 45, 60, 45, then come back down to 30, 45, 30.

I've noticed that trying to bump an entire week can sometimes be too much, but these smaller 2-3 day chunks are easier to handle.

There are many ways to skin this cat. Probably the only wrong way is forcing it and getting injured. Good luck to you!

Thanks! Very sound advice. I do agree that reaching "Stage 2" in itself would already be great. That's roughly 50mpw.

I also like the idea of not bumping all days at once, but every other day before bumping the remaining ones. Makes a lot of sense!

Doing it this way would take about 8 weeks from the 4.5 hour to 6.5 hour which seems about just right. I however never did well with "cut backs" weeks. Is that okay to not have any, and instead, just really bringing the whole thing up slowly?

This summer I trained the other way around, and like to graph my HR vs. pace for a test run I do. It's incredible to see how I did better at high HR ranges and poorly at the lower ones. Just like Hadd's toothpaste analogy, I brought the most out of the tube by pressing the top, and never really worked the rest, so I'm excited to fix this up moving forward. And even for a "base" schedule, the above does not seem too repetitive. Cheers!

Cut back weeks - I'd say go with what has worked for you. I did the Hadd approach last winter and followed his cutback suggestion (2 consecutive days off every 4th week). Every cutback week I was itching to run and felt like I was wasting time, but I did it anyway. 5 straight months, and no setbacks. This summer I got away from the cutback weeks and have had several small setbacks the past 3 months. I don't know if it's because of lack of cutbacks, but it could be.

I've seen reputable coaches suggest both ways. And each approach is conservative in its own way. 1.) Build, build, build, cutback. Repeat. Hadd, and others do this. 2.) Build, maintain, maintain, maintain; Repeat. Daniels suggests this approach, only adding mileage every 4-6 weeks. I think either could work, but be wary of mixing the two and getting hurt off something like: build, build, build, build, build, build....

Thanks again! This is helpful. I will definitely have to try and see what works best for me.

I've never ran 7 days week, so I am a little scared. But if I get too worn out I'd rather take 1-2 days off after say a 21 day streak rather than doing a cut back week reducing mileage by say 25%....not running at all for a few days help me recover better than just slightly reducing mileage.

In any case, it will be a learning curve. Can't wait to work on building this base.

I suggest you include some strides in your program. Without a little bit of quick running each week during base, you may pick up an injury in the spring when you start to do race pace intervals. Something like 5 or 10 x 10 to 20 seconds at 800 to 1500 pace two or three times a week is all you need.

The points other posters made about some down days and/or weeks are excellent.

Some people have done well in their mileage building quest by just lengthening the long run at first, then letting the other days catch up. So for your outline, once you can do the 30 or 45 minute days with a 60 minute long run comfortably, keep the 30 and 45 minute days the same and gradually (about 10% per week) increase the long run until you get to 90. Then, hold the long run at 90 while you gradually increase the 30 days to 45 and the 45 days to 60. Once you can do that, gradually build the long run again to 120, etc.

You may want to look at what body parts you have injured in your first 2 years of running and what might need to be strengthened or stretched so those same body parts don't get injured again. Maybe there is something in your running form that needs to be worked out before you bump up the mileage too far.

Finally, my favorite Lydiardism is that good training and bad training look exactly the same on paper. Say you are scheduled for a 60 minute hilly run or a two hour aerobic run and you feel like crap before the run. Suppose 10 to 20 minutes into the run you still feel like crap. Consider making that day a 30 minute jog day so you can recover. Not everyone can build to the level of mileage in your outline even if they have been running for 12 years and not just 2 years.

If you do the lydiard base right with no injuries setbacks etc you will not believe your endurance--

Best way to stay healthy in a "Lydiard base" is to SLOOOOOOWWWW DOOOOWN. 5 or 6 days a week, just take it easy. Since the volume of running will be high, don't worry about the intensity at all. Once a week or so you can consciously bump up the effort if you want to, but don't force it.

asdfsfd wrote:

Best way to stay healthy in a "Lydiard base" is to SLOOOOOOWWWW DOOOOWN. 5 or 6 days a week, just take it easy. Since the volume of running will be high, don't worry about the intensity at all. Once a week or so you can consciously bump up the effort if you want to, but don't force it.

Well, we don´t want him to need surgery, do we?

Lots of good advice in this thread, definitely bookmarked.A few comments:

That sounds fair. When feeling good I'll include either some 100m strides at the end, and later on some fartlek like the 200/200 I read from Hadd.

Question: regarding the hilly runs, I plan on doing that in some of the steep parts of Central Park (e.g. Ramble) where the slopes can go well above 5-6%, allowing to "sprint" or springe up the slope on my forefoot. This should be efficient in terms of conserving/developing some power and strength as in speedwork, no?

I've had problems with calves, shins and ankle. I believe the small hill sprints could help. Maybe I could try to do some form of plyos for the ankles? Not sure and a little cautious. On the other hand, calves issues seems to be related to conditioning/flexibility, so running more often might help them. I also am thinking of transitioning into less supportive shoes (e.g. Brooks Pure or Nike LunarGlide) for some of my runs. I currently run in Asics 2160s but my overpronation is very mild. I also have mid to high arch. A final thing I consider is doing barefoot/vff strides on grass at the end of easy days.

EXCELLENT. If I feel like crap I plan on cutting the day, and forgetting about it. I don't plan on playing catch up. E.g. if Sunday long run can't work for any reason I run Monday's run as planned, I don't push back everything 1 day or switch/tweak to keep the harder stuff. I'll just move on. If I can go to Stage 2 (~6.5 hours or 50mpw) in a 8-12 weeks this will be perfect (Dec thru Feb) for maybe a Spring Marathon (e.g. Paris in April?). I ran my first marathon on about 20 mpw, lol. I however didn't experience issues, I'm pretty endurant. My only weakness is my inability to train at a high volume, NOT the ability to meet my race goals (other than a fast marathon).

Thanks all!

Doubling your volume in one season is probably a but risky. I would should for the middle figure (150% of the starting point) as your goal for the maxes. Moving beyond is opening up the door to injury.

I agree that caution on plyos is very appropriate. I was thinking more like calf raises, foot circles, etc. for lower leg strengthening.

Short hill sprints as part of a run are fine. Were you planning to do most of your mileage on hard or soft surfaces? Generally, softer is better.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

If your an injury prone athlete, i would say take one day a week to do an aerobic cross training activity for 60+ minutes. Otherwise the schedule looks great

SlowFatMaster:

I agree that caution on plyos is very appropriate. I was thinking more like calf raises, foot circles, etc. for lower leg strengthening.

Short hill sprints as part of a run are fine. Were you planning to do most of your mileage on hard or soft surfaces? Generally, softer is better.

Sound advice, I should just incorporate eccentric calf raises and foot/ankle exercises regularly, plus maybe a few lunges. Regarding terrain: i'll mix it up, probably 30% trails/70% road. Maybe I can try to run more on soft surface (e.g. bridle path in CP).

pissy and drunk wrote:

Doubling your volume in one season is probably a but risky. I would should for the middle figure (150% of the starting point) as your goal for the maxes. Moving beyond is opening up the door to injury.

Agreed the middle figure would be best. I found out I could build it up as follows:

Starting from week 0,

Add 5' to Mon-Wed-Fri on week 1 then:

Add 5' to Tue-Thu-Sat on week 2 then:

Add 10' to Sun on week 3 and then repeat the build-up cycle 3 times.

So in 9 weeks I could go from the first to the second column quite comfortably. Would this progression make sense?

Also should I just go ahead and spread my current mileage over 7 days to start right at week 0, or should I take baby steps (say 4 weeks) to build to the intitial 30-45-30-45-30-30-60? I've never ran 7 days a week, so I thought about doing it as 0-45-0-45-0-30-60 then replacing the 0s by 15 and finally 30 over 3-4 weeks. Hence total schedule is 12 weeks to get me from scratch (= 3 hours or 25mpw) to the middle column (= 6.5 hours or 50 mpw). Of course I can always stay at week 0 or any of the intermediate steps longer for any reason..no rush! I like the idea of the extra 5' as highlighted above, that has to be the most "gentle" way to build up?