Q for SprintGeezer

bump

Just saw this, can't tell if it is a joke designed to waste my time, or a genuine inquiry.

If the latter, I'm flattered--if the former, I'm a sucker if I respond.

I have some work to do, but will pick this up in a bit...maybe!

Of course I want to hear what others have to say about this as well.

Dude no joke. If you’d rather not respond fair enough but I’m not trolling.

I’ve read a lot on Google and what not about the importance of a big first step out of blocks for example, but then I go to practice and my coach preaches short quick stepts out of blocks, so the direct opposite.

I get up tall, and simply feel like i'm spinning my wheels, wasting a lot of energy but not going very fast. When I do this, I tend to fatigue very quickly, losing what form I have and locking up bigtime.

I've had instances, running "special endurance" stuff where I've tried to relax more, and let it come to me ifyou will, which has resulted in the feeling of much more fluidity in my stride, and the feeling of actually having power as I push off the track. I've also on occation, purposely reduced my effort out of blocks to concentrate on form, and again have felt slower coming out but much more powerful.

Believe me, if I were trolling you I would not have just wrote that mini novel.

Just to add to my previous post, I feel that right now when I run, I am not maximizing the power that I do have in my legs. I'm a 380 squatter, but feel that my fast turnover is limiting me when it comes to using that power I have.

did you ever use an acceleration ladder or sticks in practice to practice each stride getting longer?

Nothing of the sort, never even heard of those?

Well, I'm going to risk being the chump.

LOL11 you raise more issues than you know.

As you know, there are a number of different phases to a race. Let's be crude and divide it into 3 phases--start and early acceleration, later acceleration, and speed maintenance.

From the sounds of it, you are most concerned about the first 2 acceleration phases at this point.

Let me say first that there is no accepted answer to your basic question, and that it is a highly individual thing.

Let me also say that the fastest guys to 60m--not necessarily those who win the indoors races--have long, powerful strides at the start and during acceleration.

Then there is a guy like Collins, who is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Although he does well for himself indoors, there are a bunch of guys who can beat him to 60m outdoors, both now and historically.

Here is something that can help you, and that I never, ever hear articulated: what is really important at the start and on acceleration is to develop a FEEL FOR THE GROUND. Know it. Love it. Feel it. It is where the reaction force comes from that propels you upward and forward. Don't let any part of your body stray too far from it. Keep your feet close to it. Feel the ground for TIMING, make sure that, especially nearer the start, you aren't out of contact with the ground for long.

Remember that you are only accelerating for that period during which you are receiving reaction force from the ground. Do not try to minimize contact time--minimize lack of contact time near the start. Slide your feet along and near the ground like Powell and even Bolt do. Stay low. As your forward speed increases your foot speed will need to increase, and you will gradually need to have more swing to the leg to generate the required foot speed.

Only later in this stage, once you are at your full running height, can you "hammer the ground" or "paw the track" to good effect.

Don't concentrate on the actual acceleration, concentrate on feeling the track and making your contact continuous and smooth. Look at tape of guys like Greene, Powell, Boldon, Bolt, even Chambers--you will see them accelerating more smoothly than anything else, and it works.

The girls do it a bit differently, and I have seen some guys start to do it, guys like Blake and Gay. A careful, measured start, with good feel but a slightly different body posture, the torso not held so low. A very short first step, not designed to apply maximum force but instead designed to permit continuous application of force by runners who are naturally less powerful, but who may have excellent turnover.

You will find your balance somewhere on that spectrum.

The acceleration will come. Experiment in very long strides by really flexing the upper leg at the hip, to the point where it feels like you are stretching. Get a longer power stroke from the increased range. Introduce lift rather than shuffling as you increase speed. Transition from all shuffle and zero speed to no shuffle and maximum speed.

But remember to feel the ground. Experiment a bit and find out where in your range your force production comes from, whether it is more from the flexed position or more from the extended position, or across the board. Favor ground contact within that range.

Feel the track. Know the track, and draw strength from the track. Keep your head down and your eyes looking at the track as it passes underneath you. Keep in personal contact with it during your acceleration, and the memory of that contact will serve you well when you are at speed, and you are running through air rather than over land.

Use hill accelerations to familiarize yourself with all of this technique I'm preaching--they are totally under-rated and under-used, and are fantastic training for not only power, but also for technique.

Strangely, the fastest 60m you will ever run will seem like the easiest--use that knowledge. Seek an acceleration form that is easy for you, then progressively lower it, and extend it in time--before you know it, you'll have covered 60m, and it will feel like it was easy. And it will have been fast.

Or, just do drugs.

Dude thanks for the great post, just a question:

When u say flexing the upper leg during long strides, what do u mean? Thanks.

You're a fake

Keeping your torso somewhat parallel to the ground, do not be afraid to, for instance, bring your knee to your chest when experimenting--an exaggeration, but you know what I mean.

You will get it. Try going up steps, first 2 at a time, then 3, then 4, then 5, etc. At some point it will seem like you can't usefully go another step--when that happens, think about the form you've been using--then consciously lower your torso parallel to the incline of the steps, drive with the knees, keep your head down and looking at the steps, and you will find that you can do that other step relatively easily.

At that point the light will go on. Transfer that new knowledge to the track. Don't push too hard. Be smooth. Remember it's not about speed near the start, it is about gaining speed.

Find a good set of steps.

Let us know if you experience that eureka moment!

Geezer:

Thanks for all the help here and in only a few weeks I think I've kinda figure things out with my first 15 m a lot better.

I do have a follow up couple of questions though:

First, I am really focusing on patience when coming out of blocks, to let things progress as far as generating speed, body angle etc. but sometimes I still feel like I'm overstriding even when I'm pushing, thus I pull with the hamstrings which is leading to me breaking, subsequently I'm coming up tall before I am at 25 meters. Would speeding up my cadence prevent me from reaching out in front of my center of gravity? I am really focusing on low heel recovery also, and am wondering how long out of blocks do I need to focus on this aspect?

My last question pertains to overall stride frequency and if there is much of a difference in turnover between the first 30 meters of the race and beyond? Thanks again for your input...

Someone told me your best 60, is 13.9 down hill.

Thanks for the thread bump loser

LOL11--

You ask very specific, very difficult questions, good for you.

I will add what I can, but this is no substitute for the advice of a real coach who can watch you perform, and who can see how you follow instruction.

I believe that turnover typically peaks between 20-40m in a 100m race--the first 20m are longer with more contact time, 20-40 or 20-50 is a smooth blend and transition from power to speed, and the last 50m is a decreasing stride frequency, with a possibly lengthening stride.

Take a look at Powell's stride frequency in 10m sections in a 9.77 run: 3.86, 4.90, 4.98, 4.85, 4.95, 4.85, 4.83, 4.81, 4.76, 4.72

Powell is excellent over the first 10m, so he hits a rapid 4.90 already in the second 10m segment. This is where you have to realize that you're not as fast as he is, that your speed development won't be as quick, and that you need to remain patient. Yes, you will need to increase frequency, but not as quickly as Powell in that race. IIRC, elite women don't hit their max frequency until 20m because they don't yet have the speed to necessitate the frequency increase at 10m.

As you can see from the above, there is a lot of difference in stride frequency between the first 30m and beyond, especially relative to the last 30m.

This is not to say that the last 30m should be "coasted", but instead, that it should be "stretched-out". Take a look at all-time greats, and you will see 2 kinds of finish: controlled, and stretched-out. Examples of the latter include the early Bolt, Lewis, Boldon, Gatlin, etc--these guys really seem to sail the last 50m of the 100m.

Don't worry about stride frequency in the last 50m--concentrate mostly on speed over the ground. COVER GROUND. It might often feel like you're overstriding a bit, and you might actually be overstriding, but the net result could be the fastest way possible to run the 100m. Everybody slows down in the latter half of a race. By focussing on maintaining turnover at the expense of stride length, all you will do is tighten up, and ultimately go slower over the ground--like Kim Collins. That's why he gets blown away in the last 40m. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure that his stride frequency profile is different from Powell's given above--and, ultimately, it results in a slower times.

As far as "coming up tall" is concerned, I need more information, and this is why: "coming up tall" can have different meanings, with very different implications.

In one version of "coming up tall", the upper body is held more vertical, and the head is held up and you are looking down the track.

In another version, it is the HIPS that are high above the ground, regardless of the position of the upper body.

In a third version, both of the above occur.

Getting the hips too high, too early, is devastating to acceleration, devastating to the application of power to the ground. Remember, you need some contact time in order for the reactive force of the ground to accelerate you forward--no contact, no acceleration. The higher the hips, the lower the contact time, in general. In fact, even in the latter half of a race, you can run holding your hips too high. It is obvious when a sprinter does this, they will appear to be flailing at the ground, and will actually slow down. It is actually easier to do energetically, because it doesn't allow you to work as hard, and is very commonly observed among untrained, usually young, sprinters.

On the other hand, you can look at a guy like Boldon--stays long and low, with the hips high, but not too high above the ground. Same for Powell, Bailey, Hayes, Lewis, Gatlin, and others.

Some guys keep their upper body more vertical, while still keeping the hips nice and low while driving. It might look like they're "up early", but they aren't--guys like Johnson, Burrell, and girls like Fraser-Pryce run like that, and it is certainly a viable way to go, if that is natural for you--but if it isn't, and you bring that torso up, the hips will often rise, too. Best advice for the usual sprinter is to keep the head down, and the torso will follow the head.

Keeping your hips from getting too high, too fast, is IMHO a key to maintaining acceleration in the latter part of the acceleration phase. A guy like Greene accelerated smoothly throughout the entire acceleration phase for a number of reasons, one being his hip position--that is why it looked as though he were smoking guys between 30-60m--they were flailing, he was smooth. This is part of patience, letting it come.

Of course you shouldn't be breaking, unless you're souped-up on drugs and can handle the break, which I'm assuming you're not. BTW, all this stuff on hip height assumes that you are pretty strong--all those guys I mentioned were super-strong. If you aren't that strong yet, your trajectory will come up sooner, like happens to many of the elite women. No problem, that is something that comes with training.

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the importance of backside action, INCLUDING THE ARMS, during the acceleration phase, especially the early acceleration phase. Take a look at elite sprinters and you will see not quads, but hams and ass. Sure the quads are there, but the hams are usually developed to an extent not seen in other athletes.

Why? Because they learn to USE those muscle groups to good advantage. IMHO, they actually pull with them to some extent, and don't use them solely for recovery of the leg. I'm talking early acceleration. The hams are a 2-joint muscle--they go across the hip and knee joints. To make the best use of them, the leg should not be fully extended at the knee, so when you are driving in early acceleration, don't worry about "running tall", and extending the lower leg too much--stay a bit cocked, in a power position, with a slight angle at the knee. This should permit you to get more "dig" into the track with your hams, and IMHO allow them to work in a more complementary fashion with the quads and glutes in a total leg movement aimed at applying power to the ground.

So there is nothing wrong with "pulling with the hams" in early/mid acceleration. Without any increase in power, the only way you could increase your frequency in this section would be through shortening your stride, which robs you of speed development. The solution is not to shorten your stride, but to change your musculature through training aimed at allowing you to keep a slightly longer stride without breaking.

Concentrate on backside. Hams. Glutes. Most importantly, do uphill accelerations, which IMHO force you to maintain a low hip position, a good upper-body angle, and a slight angle at the knee. You will build the strength needed to not break on the flat, but in a way that won't allow you to break during the training.

Hill accelerations should be used to develop the power/strength needed to lengthen the acceleration phase on the track. They are not an analogue to flat accelerations, but a more specific and targeted type of training. Nobody ever ran a blazing 100 off hill accelerations alone, but they can be of great help to various early phases of the race.

Do them up a really steep hill, like 45 degrees, and do them up less steep hills, too. Find a position where you can maintain power application for more than 2 or 3 strides--you'll know what I'm talking about when you get it. Once you feel it, try to transfer those angles to the flat. Don't try to do too much too soon. Imagine you are still on the hill when you are in fact on the flat. Nobody expects to run 10-flat up a hill. Relax. Don't aim for speed, aim for smoothness, without that break. In the absence of a break, after smooth acceleration, the speed will be there, naturally.

Once you have that down, you can begin to think about other things, like transition.

Hope this helps, my 2 cents.

wow thanks again for the great insite!

One thing I have noticed is that my first few strides are a lot slower but then as speed picks up I have no choice but to quicken my turnover and it feels very natural. That is one plus I have discovered because in the past when I would stand up out of blocks right away I would work very hard, pulling to get up to top speed and never felt fluid when at top speed.

Is it fair to say that one could generate a faster top end speed by using glutes and quads in the drive phase than can be attained by simply pulling with hamstrings right out of blocks?

Top-end speed is all about reach, smoothness, and TIMING.

You need the ability to cycle quickly from relaxation to maximum contraction when running at top-end speed--relaxation because you don't want to retard any beneficial motion you develop, contraction for making sure your foot is accelerated to a high enough velocity by the time it hits the ground, that you don't retard your forward momentum.

It's not necessarily the actual number of cycles per unit time that is important, it is the speed at which the transition from relaxation to contraction is achieved. Some people seem to float in the middle of a long stride, but seem to have very quick transition--like Gatlin, for instance, or Powell. What they have is very quick transition, which allows them to have very good timing at high speed, which allows them good speed maintenance.

Of course, a quick transition speed can enable a high number of cycles per unit time, if the muscle energetics and neurology allow--then you get guys like Owens and Gay, and now Blake. They are fundamentally different kinds of sprinters, IMHO, than the likes of Powell and Gatlin.

As far as getting up right away from the blocks and pulling up to top speed, that is inefficient, which is why you will pay the price in the second half of the race. You WILL die unless you are on drugs, and the muscular fatigue is why you never feel fluid. It can be very fast to 30, then if you can hang on you can do well in some 60m races indoors, like Collins.

However, Collins' indoor 6.52 60m times are really nothing compared to the best first 60m of good 100m runs like Powell, Greene, Johnson, Bolt, all of whom are somewhere around 6.32 IIRC. Of course there's no wind indoors, but that is a huge difference.

Don't do it--unless you are doped, you will fatigue very early. And on that note, don't be satisfied doing 10m or 20m accelerations--that's avoiding the important part of the exercise, unless you are working on your first 2 steps out of the blocks. If you focus too much on the first 10 or 20m, you will do so at the expense of what comes later, which is relatively more important--and worst of all, you won't even realize that you are doing yourself a disservice.

This can be a theory behind doing over-distance, like 120's training for the 100. Although there are other theories for doing them, one theory can be that you do them while not worrying about how long it takes you to reach your top training speed--you don't try to get it by 50m or 60m, maybe between 60 and 70m, after which you run the race as per usual for the remainder of the time you would run it in a race, which takes you to 120m instead of 100m.

It is a way to sort of simulate a race, while emphasizing relaxing and conserving energy in the first 60m.

Remember, that TINY extra bit of perceived effort, from 98 to 100% during acceleration, comes at a TREMENDOUS metabolic cost. That energy is better put towards better transition and timing while at high speed, to avoid fatigue and maintain developed speed. This is generally accepted by some of the better coaches out there.