I've always found I run the best when I run thresholds at threshold pace or even a little slower, yet most runners I know (none of which are very good) treat their tempos almost like time trials. Is there any benefit to this for someone who's already racing once or twice a month?
The only benefit is to their opponents, who hopefully haven't run themselves into the ground.
I would say the only benefit would be for those who don't race that often. If you do a short tempo at say, 5% faster than LT pace, there will be a bit of LA accumulation by the end of the run. This could be beneficial.
However, if you are doing Reps, VO2 max type work, and racing regularyly, you don't want to run those tempos too hard.
5% faster than LT pace? Dude, that IS racing.
And I don't know of ANYONE that consistently does their tempos faster than LT pace. If anything, most I know go much slower (like 15-40 sec/mi) slower.
me two wrote:
5% faster than LT pace? Dude, that IS racing.
And I don't know of ANYONE that consistently does their tempos faster than LT pace. If anything, most I know go much slower (like 15-40 sec/mi) slower.
Well, you don't go to my school. The girls team just did a tempo where they went faster than 6k race pace for the first mile and then tried to hold on as they died the next 4 miles, and all the guys talk crap to each other before each tempo about whether or not Runner B will be able to stay with Runner A. I thought everyone understood proper threshold training, but I'm on a team where 20+ runners and two coaches apparently don't...
How do you guys fare at meets?
you wouldn't happen to run for mcneese state where every tempo is a race for a majority of the runners?
drop the last 2-3 miles way below pace and try to break each other?
Nero wrote:
How do you guys fare at meets?
The program has been in the toilet for years, though it has had the occasional stand out. I transferred here for academic reasons, and I've been rather puzzled by their training style. At least I now have a better understanding of why runners here have burnout and injury problems.
don't know why wrote:
The girls team just did a tempo where they went faster than 6k race pace for the first mile and then tried to hold on as they died the next 4 miles
I transferred here for academic reasons, and I've been rather puzzled by their training style. At least I now have a better understanding of why runners here have burnout and injury problems.
Amazing it could be good academically if the runners can't figure out that it might be impossible to run their 3.7 mile RACE PACE (6k), for a 5-mile tempo run.
That's not even math.
dont know why wrote:
I've always found I run the best when I run thresholds at threshold pace or even a little slower, yet most runners I know (none of which are very good) treat their tempos almost like time trials. Is there any benefit to this for someone who's already racing once or twice a month?
It's not a tempo if it's run faster than threshold.
I think many people would be surprised how common this type of thinking is in the NCAA system, even among "good" or "successful" coaches. Having large groups of athletes, at widely varying ability levels run threshold where the goal is to "stay with the group," and faster is considered better. I went to a major powerhouse D1 program, and distinctly remember this exchange:
Coach: All right guys, 8 miles at 5:30 pace, let's go.
Me: Hey coach, is it cool if I actually run 5:30 pace the whole run?
Coach: Just stay with the group, SV10B.
Me: OK...well, even if the group goes way faster than 5:30 pace?
Coach: Just stay with the group!
Whether or not 8 miles at 5:30 pace was the perfect/appropriate tempo run or not, I'm not sure. I was close to a 4:00 miler and in the midst of heavy mileage in the middle of cross country season, so I wasn't really trying to race 8 miles. But what always confused me was, why give instructions to run at a certain pace if you're going to get excited and encourage guys who run significantly faster?
For the record, I ran 40:40 for a slightly short 8 miles that day, and got injured a few weeks later haha.
SV10B wrote:
Coach: All right guys, 8 miles at 5:30 pace, let's go.
Me: Hey coach, is it cool if I actually run 5:30 pace the whole run?
Coach: Just stay with the group, SV10B.
Me: OK...well, even if the group goes way faster than 5:30 pace?
Coach: Just stay with the group!
Not as good of a runner as you, but I hope I would have been smart enough to not even ask your first question. Just diligently follow his first instruction and clicked off those 5:30s.
Egos make us all do foolish things.
Specific workouts regarding lactate threshold are a joke. Tempo rusn should be sharpening runs, near race pace (if for long distances). The rest are accompllished everyday runs which should be progressive and not zomibie type slow even pace.
Snoop Dogg of Science wrote:
Specific workouts regarding lactate threshold are a joke. Tempo rusn should be sharpening runs, near race pace (if for long distances). The rest are accompllished everyday runs which should be progressive and not zomibie type slow even pace.
You're talking out your ass.
SV10B wrote:
I think many people would be surprised how common this type of thinking is in the NCAA system, even among "good" or "successful" coaches. Having large groups of athletes, at widely varying ability levels run threshold where the goal is to "stay with the group," and faster is considered better.
I believe this is the strategy generally described as throwing eggs at a wall and keeping the ones that don't break.
Very interesting question!
The benefit, of course, is to race faster.
One application of doing parts of tempo runs faster than threshold pace is as follows:
1 mile in a race (sub threshold pace, meaning lactic acid will develop)
4:35
1 mile individual time trial on a track (no lactic acid)
4:48
Based on that mile time trial, the runner with proper training should be able to extend 5:30 pace for 3 miles and up. The well-trained athlete could potentially keep that pace for 8 or 10 miles or even longer.
When the coach asks you to go all out on a tempo run, presumably at a faster than race pace, it is possible to still run that first mile or two faster than your XC race pace, and still be at your threshold pace. With the runner example, 5:30 pace may be the target for 8 miles. But for 4 miles, that runner might be able to hit 5:20 pace. And the splits could even be 5:00/5:10/5:30/5:40. You are running faster so maybe next week or for you longer tempo run/race you can attempt to carry that pace for even longer. 5:00/5:10/5:20/5:30, maybe.
So to answer your question, the early part of the tempo run isn't really sub-threshold pace for that distance. You'll just slow down to threshold pace for the latter part of the run. Again, it's to allow for a longer carry of the quicker pace so you can lower your threshold pace to get quicker overall.
Renato Canova has his middle and long distance runners do 4k or 6km "fast runs" that are substantially faster than tempo run pace. Less than race pace for the same distance, though.
Maybe it's not longer correct to call these faster workouts "tempo" run if it's run so fast.
I like these descriptions of the benefit of training in different intensity zones:
http://www.endurancefactor.com/Articles/article-heartintro.html
Maybe someone else will complain about the physiology, but I think it puts training intensities in a much better perspective.
According to the link, faster than threshold is called "super-threshold" training, and it's an important intensity for 10K's and for improving "lactate tolerance". (Tempo runs merely improve "lactate clearance").
But "super threshold" is not the same as "tempo" runs. The increased intensity also demands increased recovery.
I don't want to start a secondary debate about "lactic acid" versus "lactate", so pretend the link says "lactate" everywhere.
Need to establish the difference between Basic Threshold and Specific Threshold. The first one is what you call your tempo pace (i-e- half marathon pace) and the second one is is your race pace for the distance you are training for, and the goal of working on the specific threshold is to get you used to run distances close to the ones you will be racing at your race pace (i.e. 2000m at 3000m pace)
dont know why wrote:
I've always found I run the best when I run thresholds at threshold pace or even a little slower, yet most runners I know (none of which are very good) treat their tempos almost like time trials. Is there any benefit to this for someone who's already racing once or twice a month?
UNH?