All these guys ran 2:09 or better & never trained at HiA.

Maybe they would have brought there times down to the modern standard of 2h06 with some altitude.

Who knows?

Tat's not what Jack Daniels says.

Jzs wrote:

Hi All,

Here is something to chew on, hi/lo training was to be the WAY & the answer to all of this HiA blood building but allowing for better land/speed training .

Ethio/Kenyans live hi/train hi. Hello?

BR, Alsal, DickB, Kemp, Meyer did they EVER train at HiA? So what gives with that? All these guys ran 2:09 or better & never trained at HiA.

EXPLAIN that?

Jzs

Is english your first language?

Anyways, here's my explanation: It's possible for some people to run very fast without doing Hi/Lo training. It's possible that it really helps some and doesn't do much for others. All you have shown with this briliant analysis is that Hi/Lo training is neither necessary or sufficient traning for some people if they want to break 2:09 in the marathon. Do you have any other insight to share, coach?

Kempanian trained in Fort Collins, CO

Hey smart ass from where I sit looking at some of the fastest guys this country has ever had, HiA training is not needed nor are Hi/lo houses or HiA-beds. What have you added/subtracted from what I said other then use the word possible? Also the word is brilliant not briliant as you wrote.

We don't know! It depends who their agents are, and where is the agent base. Also how many athletes are managed by the same agent. i.e Dr Rosa's group, Reneto's group.

you get the idea

It doesn't matter that they ran 2:09. Maybe they could have been better with different training, who knows. I'd like to find more information on the 2:04&2:05 guys training methods

Maybe high altitude training doesn't matter as much for the marathon than it does for shorter events because it is run at a pace that is much slower than Vo2 max pace, and even slower than threshold pace.

For well trained marathon runners oxygen delivery doesn't become a problem, rather the number of mitochondria they have is significant because the more they have the better they will be at utilizing fat as an energy source and the better they will be at preventing glycogen depletion.

I also believe that it is matter of how good they are at not losing elasticity in their muscle fibers.

Altitude is the single largest falacy associated with elite distance running. Unless you are talking about being born at above 7,000 feet it is fairly irrelevant.

Amen.

Michael Bautista wrote:

Maybe they could have been better with different training, who knows.

this reasoning has always fascinated me. i personally subscribe to this type of thinking... but i guess there's never any real way of knowing what someone's potential is given this constraint - is there?

Didn't Shorter do most of his 'thon training in that mecca of distance running - Florida?

If this is a double post sorry,

Bob H,

what altitude was MA when you were training for your 2:10:59 marathon, 700 Ft? I believe & dissing going on here that Dan Brownie & NOPE are wasting their time $$ & energy on this altit-house stuff. Thanks Bob for posting,

Jzs

John,

You have a valid point. Altitude is not the panacea for many runners. If it compromises the quality running you do, then it will be necessary to get away from it at times. I suggest that modest elevations is better than higher elevations. I'd rather advise a runner to live at 5,000 ft than higher. Still, it isn't necessary for most people. What is more important is living in a place that you can get in the training daily, weekly, and yearly without setbacks. Tinman

We don't have the answer to this, but consider that Beardsley ran two marathons under 2:10 I believe. Salazar ran a lot of fast ones, but he used a device that thinned the air for him while training (altitude simulator), and he was only good at the marathon for for 2.5 years (Fall of '80 to Spring of 1983). Meyer was such a great runner, but ran 2:09 once and in the fastest mass race ever in America (Boston 1983).

My point is that you could use guys and girls as examples who fit what you want to "prove" but that is not scientific. Shorter won some Fukuoka marathons, NY marathons, and the '76 Trials and second at the '76 Games off of High altitude training. We could also sit around and come up with 100 different sub-2:10 runners who were born at altitude, trained at altitude, or live at altitude and it still wouldn't prove much.

If you have reached a high level in running (29:00/2:15) and you go to altitude to train for a spell and you come back with a hematocrit of 46-48 (and you couldn't achieve that any other legal way) then I would say that it is a benefit.

How many can benefit this way or this much I have no idea, I know that EPO dosage and frequency has to be adjusted regularly to boost the 'crit up to 50, but not so high that it gets to 60. Altitude training is probably the same way, affects people differently.

The other thing you fail to consider is that most of those you mentioned had a strong reason to stay where they were at low altitude (Salazar = married and coach in Eugene, Meyer = married and coach in Boston, club in Boston, ... etc.)

You left out some plum examples though -> Tabb 2:09 and many 2:10's and trained in Houston and Eugene. Durden 2:09 and trained in Georgia. Kyle Heffner 2:10 and trained in Dallas. Jeff Wells and Lodwick 2:10 and trained in Eugene (I think). Virgin 2:10 and trained in Illinois. Kardong and Kenny Moore 2:11 and trained in the Northwest. Malley 5 @ 2:11-12 and trained at lowA.

Counterexamples: Mendoza 2:10 and trained in Arizona I think. Sandoval 2:10 and was from Las Cruces NM.

Notice how many from '75-'85 who were luminaries trained in Eugene? Probably has something to do with something other than altitude.

Jack Daniels makes a great point about being comfortable where you live. If you are comfortable and happy, you will probably train better. Better training equals better racing. Joan Benoit for example was content living in her native New England, despite its sometimes harsh winter. It is important to believe that where you are and what you are doing is the best thing for you. If you believe more, you achieve more. Tinman

skinny? wrote:

Didn't Shorter do most of his 'thon training in that mecca of distance running - Florida?

I think so, before '72, but afterwards he trained in Colorado (where he lives now) and New Mexico. I remember reading a New York Times magazine article about him with a photo of him doing a winter run in New Mexico. He was all bundled up and icicles covered his moustache and face. Not too pleasant looking.

Here\'s a partial list of top Americans. **** indicates altitude trained.

Khalid Knoucchi (NY) 2:05

Bob Kempainen (MN) 2:08:47 (1) Boston 18Apr94

Alberto Salazar (OR) 2:08:52 (1) Boston 19Apr82

Dick Beardsley (MN) 2:08:54 (2) Boston 19Apr82

Greg Meyer (MA) 2:09:00 (1) Boston 18Apr83

Bill Rodgers (MA) 2:09:28 (1) Boston 16Apr79

Ron Tabb (OR) 2:09:32 (2) Boston 18Apr83

****David Morris (NM) 2:09:32 (4) Chicago 24Oct99

Jerry Lawson (FL) 2:09:35 (1) Chicago 19Oct97

****Ken Martin (NM) 2:09:38 (2) New York 05Nov89

Alan Culpepper (CO) 2:09:41 Chicago 2002

Benji Durden (GA) 2:09:58 (3) Boston 18Apr83

Pat Petersen (NY) 2:10:04 (7) London 23Apr89

Phil Coppess (IA) 2:10:05 (1) St. Paul 06Oct85

Ed Mendoza (AZ) 2:10:07 (4) Boston 18Apr83

Tony Sandoval (OR) 2:10:19 (1) Niagara Falls 24May80

****Garry Bjorklund (MN) 2:10:20 (1) Duluth 21Jun80

Craig Virgin (IL) 2:10:27 (2) Boston 20Apr81

Kirk Pfeffer (CA) 2:10:29 (7) Fukuoka 07Dec80

****Frank Shorter (FL) 2:10:30 (1) Fukuoka 03Dec72

Bill Donakowski (CA) 2:10:41 (1) St. Paul 12Oct86

John Tuttle (AL) 2:10:51 (4) New York 23Oct83

John Lodwick (OR) 2:10:54 (3) Eugene 09Sep79

Kyle Heffner (TX) 2:10:55 (3) Niagara Falls 24May80

Bob Hodge (MA) 2:10:59 (2) Eugene 07Sep80.

****Marty Froelick (CO) 2:10:59 (1) St. Paul 11Oct87

****Ed Eyestone (UT) 2:10:59 (5) Chicago 28Oct90

Dave Smith (CA) 2:11:09 (3) Eugene 09Sep79

Don Norman (PA) 2:11:09 (1) Duluth 15Jun85

Eamon O\'Reilly (DC) 2:11:12 (2) Boston 20Apr70

Rudy Chapa (IN) 2:11:13 (7) New York 23Oct83

****Paul Pilkington (UT) 2:11:13 (1) Houston 14Jan90

Don Kardong (WA) 2:11:16 (4) Montreal 31Jul76

Don Janicki (AZ) 2:11:16 (7) Chicago 20Oct85

Todd Williams (TN) 2:11:17 (10) Chicago 19Oct97

Jack Fultz (PA) 2:11:18 (4) Boston 17Apr78

Rick Callison (OH) 2:11:22 (2) Metairie 10Feb80

Mike Layman (WA) 2:11:25 (7) Boston 18Apr83

Randy Thomas (MA) 2:11:26 (5) Boston 17Apr78

****Paul Cummings (UT) 2:11:32 (1) Houston 19Jan86

Fred Torneden (KS) 2:11:35 (1) St. Paul 30Sep84

Kenny Moore (OR) 2:11:36 (2) Fukuoka 06Dec70

Dan Schlesinger (MA) 2:11:37 (8) Boston 18Apr83

Paul Gompers (IL) 2:11:39 (2) St. Paul 11Oct87

Dave Gordon (WA) 2:11:41 (11) New York 23Oct83

Pete Pfitzinger (MA) 2:11:43 (1) Niagara Falls 26May84

****Arturo Barrios (CO) 2:11:43 (3) New York 06Nov94

Mark Curp (MO) 2:11:45 (3) St. Paul 11Oct87

Dean Matthews (NJ) 2:11:48 (13) Hiroshima 14Apr85

Herm Atkins (WA) 2:11:52 (5) Eugene 09Sep79

John Dimick (VT) 2:11:53 (1) Metairie 18Feb79

My bad: Shorter DID train at altitude prior to '72 according to this Jeff Galloway quote:

"In the fall of 1970 I enrolled in graduate school at Florida State University with two missions: to get a masters degree and to qualify for the Olympic Trials. My friends on the Florida Track Club, Frank Shorter and Jack Bacheler, talked me into joining them for high altitude training at Vail for two months prior to the 1972 Olympic trials. Qualifying for the Olympic team was fulfilling beyond words, but my greatest thrill was pacing Jack through the marathon trial and then dropping back at the finish so that he could take the remaining spot on the marathon team." Jeff qualified for the 1972 Olympics in the 10,000 meters and as an alternate for the marathon.