do your tempos longer and dont stop after twenty minutes. tone it down a bit tho to ensure you can sustain it for longer distance. also, your speed isnt too great either, actually kind of sub par for a 17:30 guy. sounds to me like its more just your not pushing hard enough in your races or your tempos. 200's in 34-35's is right around your level for 5k but the more you can do with minimal rest, the better. i know kids who were 17:30 guys yet could split 54-55 low in relays off the training (and they were usually off first leg splits, or just crappy hand offs).
I can run 5k in 15:30 yet still have a 400 of 50. I think it's important to maintain this kind of speed to be a good athlete whatever the distance. Whats your weekly schedule?
Last few months have been very patchy and inconsistent with weeks off here and there and no real quality so just getting back to it properly. for the last two months I have been doing every week:
5x1k with 2 min rest
20 min tempo run
Progression run (5-7 miles)
13 mile long run
Strides on easy days (now and again have time to get in 6x200m in 34-35 secs, relaxed and easy so not a workout).
Im at the stage now where I can run 60 mpw comfortable.
Im just gonna hold it like this for a while...not trying to peak for a race or anything and hope my endurance improves.
I dont think my speed is stellar by any means but it should be more than enough to break 17 (?) and I really dont think its my weakest area (i.e. not something I should be focusing on).
1. You need some variation. If you do the same thing week in and week out, your body will eventually no longer respond. Variation will allow your body to keep adapting and improving over time.
2. Three workouts and a Long Run is probably a little too much quality in a week. Cutting out one quality day will allow you to recover better for workouts and races.
3. Try to be consistent with strides. Ideally, you get in either 100s, 150s, or 200s after every normal aerobic run. It will really make a difference in improving running economy.
4. Your tempo runs are probably too short. If you can easily maintain 6:15 pace for 3 miles, then start pushing it to 3.5-4 miles at the same pace. If you do this gradually, before you know it you will be able to maintain for 5-6 miles. You will see the biggest gains in endurance and race performance through extended tempo runs.
If I were you, I would set up the week like this:
Mon: Aerobic Run + 6x200m
Tue: Tempo Run OR 3x10 minutes @ tempo pace (2 min recovery) Alternate each week
Wed: Aerobic Run + 8x150m
Thr: Aerobic Run + 8x100m
Fri: 5x1K @ VO2max OR Progression Run OR Fartlek - Alternate each week
How long have you been doing this routine? How fast are those 5 x 1k?
I don't think a 58s 400m time is considered slow for a 17 minute 5K runner. I had never even broken 60s when I had run in the low-to-mid 15's. I have zero speed and would have loved to be faster, but there are plenty of guys that just don't have that speed. I would much rather have 50s speed and agree that 50s speed gives more potential in any event, but I know at least one <2:15 marathoner who has never broken 58s.
5-6 miles of tempo runs is a lot for a 17:30 runner, in my opinion. I strongly believe in doing tempo runs, but my thought would be you are having trouble bridging the gap in intervals. You need to get that high intensity aerobic training in.
I would recommend instead of doing 5x1k with 2 minutes, do something shorter, but faster (4-6 x 800m) with 2 minutes for one interval session, and then something longer (4 x 1200 with 3minutes) for another interval session. After a few times of going 4 x 1200, go 3 x mile, with a good 5 minute recovery. One thing you may consider doing is doing any of these aerobic interval workouts, but combining the first two hard periods into one (ie, instead of doing 6x800m, do 1xmile followed by 4x800). Alternatively, you can do the opposite to get used to really gutting it out when you are already fatigued.
Personally, at your level, if you are going to cut something out to recover better, I would cut that 13 mile long run down to 8-10 miles for now. I believe in long run, but training is about periodization. If you have been doing those long runs for a while, you have a sufficient aerobic base already, and running all those miles well below race pace is not going to do as much for you as running at or above race pace (ie, interval training) right now. Once you are doing well with a few months of good intervals, you can change your training emphasis and add more on the long run again.
One more aerobic interval workout for you could be shorter intervals with short recovery. You can do a 58s 400m... And the race pace you want to go is about 82s per lap. Go into lane 6 or lane 8 and do 400m intervals from the correct starting line for that lane. Do them around 79-81s, and only use a very easy jog from the finish to the correct start line to recover. These will feel incredibly slow... at first. But keep going, the recovery is short. Try to do a full 5K worth, and if you need to break it down into two or three sets (one lap jog in between).
The suggestions by suggestions seem to be very good, listen to those. I would build up the time spent on your tempo runs and also slow them down a bit. Try building up to 6 miles at around 6:30 pace instead of 6:15 pace. Also, increase your 5x1k by 1k. 6x1k at around 5:51 pace seems about right. I agree with suggestions on getting rid of the progressive run. Your intervals workout, tempo run and long run are all the stress you need in a week. You've probably been overtraining for a little while. Hope you break that 17 barrier.
his 400pr is over 20seconds faster than the race pace he wants to go, legspeed is not his problem dude. the fact that he can't maintain his pace is the prob.
CoachWill**** wrote:
5K guy wrote:
Ok 17.30 5k guy looking to break 17.
Can run 400 in 58 secs and do 200's in 34-35 easily yet after this I go to shit.
My tempo runs are done at about 6:15 min mile pace (for 20 mins) and I really struggle to hold any sort of pace for more than 3 miles.
How can I improve my endurance, I feel its really holding me back?
I could coach you under 16:40 this year. You don't have good leg speed, but I could easy develop it.
his 400pr is over 20seconds faster than the race pace he wants to go, legspeed is not his problem dude. the fact that he can't maintain his pace is the prob.
[quote]
Totally agree. I'm a sub-17:30 runner, but I'm 37-years-old, and so I've lost all of my foot-speed. I don't even think that I can break 70 for a quarter now, but that's a moot point, since I'm closer to breaking 17 than "5k-guy" is (17:06 PR, with most races 17:10-17:20s). So, surely, foot-speed only accounts for so much, even in a mid-distance event such as the 5k.
I also agree with previous poster 234. No more than 3 quality days, including long run. The reason 5k guy can't break 17 is because he's over-training.
But more specifically, I think "5k-guy"'s biggest problem is that he's not recovering well. He has (enough) speed, and he does 60mpw, and he does the big 3 (intervals, tempo, long run), which would mean that he's doing everything right. Perhaps his recovery days are too hard, and so he should really slow his pace on those days. (The rule of thumb is 2:00/M slower than race pace, so a 17:30 runner (5:38/M) shouldn't be doing anything faster than 7:40/M on recovery days.) Or perhaps he just has a body type that doesn't recover well. (Some people, especially ectomorphs with high metabolisms need more rest/nutrition relative to other people because ectomorphs' bodies are more prone to being in a catabolic state.)
Regardless as to the reason why he recovers poorly, I would suggest that he drop down to 2 quality days by doing a quality-double. Since he has (enough) speed already, he could probably get by with just one strength/speed day. On this day, he could do intervals AM, then tempo run PM. Then on the other quality day, he could do the long run. This way, he's still doing the big 3 (intervals, tempo, long run), but giving himself an extra day of recovery.
The other option is to spread his quality days out by going from a 7-day cycle to a 10-day cycle.
How fast are your nonworkout runs and how many miles do they add up to? It would not surprise me if they were too slow, too few, or both.
I agree with most here, but will say it differently. Take a step back from the workouts and put that energy towards developing the quality of your distance runs. The most important step in developing endurance is acquiring the ability to run at a moderate pace (6:45-7:15 pace?) frequently. Try only 1-2 hard runs per week but let most of the others turn into "easy" progression runs. To balance the amount of quality that you had going before, I'm guessing that these quality distance runs should total about 30-60 miles. But always include a few easy slower and shorter runs to help recovery. They key is realizing that the purpose for the distance runs are not recovery, they are training your base endurance. They won't train that if they walks in the park.
I just recently broke 17 for 5k. My pr for 400m is ~60s, although I haven't done a time trial in a while. While you certainly don't need to improve your raw speed to reach your goal, doing speed/speed endurance workouts can be pretty beneficial. They help with muscle recruitment and biomechanics...and depending on how you set up the rest they can help improve your stroke volume and other aspects of your cardio.
examples of these workouts: 10x100m @400m race pace w/100 jog recovery, diagonals, 10-15s hill sprints, hill circuits (e.g. ~400 pace for 15s, high skips 15s, ~400 pace 15s, butt kicks 15s, ~400 pace 15s, bounding 15s). Most training plans recommend building up these workouts during base phase, doing them every 4-7days. Later on in the season you do something like the above every 10-14 days for maintenance. When doing these workouts, always remain relaxed. If your form deteriorates, stop the workout
In a similar position to this guy except trying to go sub 17:30. Which is better:
10 mile tempo at 6:20-6:30 plus another workout of 3x1 mile at 5:45-5:50
Or
8x1 mile threshold at 6:05
?
No one training for a 5K needs to be doing a 10 mile tempo.. if you can only run 17:30 then 6:20 for 10 is basically a race. Focus on running more miles.. longer long runs.. long hill repeats/climbs. 8x 1 mile @ threshold will not make you run sub 17:30
In a similar position to this guy except trying to go sub 17:30. Which is better:
10 mile tempo at 6:20-6:30 plus another workout of 3x1 mile at 5:45-5:50
Or
8x1 mile threshold at 6:05
?
No one training for a 5K needs to be doing a 10 mile tempo.. if you can only run 17:30 then 6:20 for 10 is basically a race. Focus on running more miles.. longer long runs.. long hill repeats/climbs. 8x 1 mile @ threshold will not make you run sub 17:30
That's what they're doing in the Norwegian thread. Threshold / sub-threshold only.