Best distance/pace for tempo runs to break 25:00 for 8k?

4-6 miles at ~5:20 pace

The previous poster is right that 4-6 miles at 5:20 is a good tempo for a guy capable of 25:00, but if you aren't capable of running 25:00, then you aren't capable of a 5:20 tempo for 4-6 miles. Just keep doing tempos at the correct effort and inch the mileage up so it gets closer to the 5 or 6 mile range. The pace depends on your ability at the time you do it. But yeah, as far as goals, you'll know you're there if you can tempo at a 5:20 pace.

I would recommend 3 tempo runs for you on a regular basis:

30 minutes @ constant speed trying to work down to being able to handle 5:20 pace by the end of the summer

30 minutes progression tempo with 30 seconds progression in pace during the run - working towards being able to start at 5:40 and finishing at 5:10 pace or better

60 minute constant speed tempo done working towards being able to handle 5:40 pace by the end of the summer

of course adjust these paces for the summer heat (0.5% per 5 degress above 55F)

Thank you for the responses. I guess I should've given some background in the OP. During track I was doing 3mile tempos at 5:25-30 pace. PRs of 3:51 for 1500m and 15:01 for 5k with 60-75 mpw.

it needs to be faster than 5:20 pace. I ran 26 min for an 8k around the time I ran 53 min for a 10 miler with hills on the road

53:10 10 miler over hills is worth about a 25:00 8k. Either the 26:00 course was long or your 10 miler was short.

My thoughts also, you should be capable of a much faster 8k if you can run a 53 10 miler; close to 25 flat.

Think about it, 5:18 pace for 10 miles and 5:13/14 for 8k. Wouldn't you think it'd be faster??

tempotime wrote:

Thank you for the responses. I guess I should've given some background in the OP. During track I was doing 3mile tempos at 5:25-30 pace. PRs of 3:51 for 1500m and 15:01 for 5k with 60-75 mpw.

I was slower than you (4:00/15:15 at 1500/5K) but still ran 24:45 for 5 miles. I'd say you could get your goal tomorrow.

As a minimum you must develop the ability to do the following:

40 laps at 1:36/lap

(like it's peanuts and you could easily handle another 20+ laps on demand)

30 laps at 1:30/lap

(as above - should take no mental effort whatsoever)

20 laps at 1:25/lap

(if you need to, start with 1600s at this pace with a 400m dog easy untimed jog break). As you get fitter, make it 4 x 2k with a 400m jog, then 3 x 3k ...

Start building from the slow end (1:36/lap) and when you nail that pace (with the right effort), the quicker paces will come easy.

Do not look down on the slower paces. Your current inability to do them as easily as required is what is stopping you racing faster today. When you run that pace today, it takes you too much effort.

It's not a case of "can you do them" (which I expect you can even today), but can you do them at the right effort level? Keep doing them till you genuinely believe that you could go all night at 1:36/lap pace (but you don't).

When you nail the 30 laps at 1:30 (and know that if I told you to run another 10-20, you could) AND you get to 3 x 3k at 1:25/lap pace, you'll need to add in some work at 3-5k pace. But that's in the future.

Putting it together can be something like this:

Tues - 1:36/lap pace (build to 40 laps ... knowing you could run 60 if required)

Fri - 1:25/lap pace (start small and build with 400m jog breaks)

Tues - 1:30/lap pace (build to 30 laps ... knowing you could run 40-50 if required)

Fri: 1:25/lap pace (build with 400m jog breaks)

Don't be impatient, do the above and in 3 months you can be a different runner.

Ok let me get this straight......the OP wants a pace to run to get into shape to break 25 min. All of you are just guessing. You cannot just hand down a LT or submaximal pace for a runner unless you know their current ability.

You just cant assign training paces off of a goal pace.

So lets start over..................what is the OP current ability at 3k or 2mile? Maybe a 5K time?

those aerobic wos are good but i think ur insane to do them on the track if thats what you are suggesting. I mean that is some serious lappage it would drive me crazy. Why not run on grass or even roads instead.

Summer blueprint,

I haven't found it quite that simple. I want to be able to run 5:40 pace for 8 or hopefully 10k. I am running about 50 miles per week. I have recently run 14.33 miles at 7:12 pace, 10 miles at 6:45 pace and 9 miles at 6:36 pace on the road in training. These are not races just workouts in an extremely modulated schedule. 6:20 pace doesn't bother me but I haven't run a continuous run at that pace since last fall when I ran 5 miles in 31:08 (training), 10k in 38:48 (race) and 8k in 31:15 (training) all on the road. At that time, the longer runs were also possible.

On the other hand, it seems like I have a speed limit. If I try to run Summer of Antonio style, short rest fartleck, say 10 x 500 in 1:50 (5:52 pace) with 100 in 40 sec jog rest, I only do about 5 before it seems like a race. So what kind of race?pace work should I do along with your tempos (which for me would fit since they are shorter and easier than what I have been doing) or how should I mix things up so that my FT muscles are ready to cooperate with my ST that seem to have just about reached that state you suggest would get me my desired 5:40 pace?

OklyDokly wrote:

I was slower than you (4:00/15:15 at 1500/5K) but still ran 24:45 for 5 miles. I'd say you could get your goal tomorrow.

You averaged 4:57 pace for 5 miles but could only average 4:55 pace for 3.1?

This is going to sound crazy, but I've read so much of what you've written that I think I can identify based on your post here. John Hadd?

Summer blueprint,

In case you are Hadd, it might interest you that I can do 200/200 at 45/60 for 10k with no problem.

OklyDokly wrote:

tempotime wrote:

Thank you for the responses. I guess I should've given some background in the OP. During track I was doing 3mile tempos at 5:25-30 pace. PRs of 3:51 for 1500m and 15:01 for 5k with 60-75 mpw.

I was slower than you (4:00/15:15 at 1500/5K) but still ran 24:45 for 5 miles. I'd say you could get your goal tomorrow.

Well, maybe he's just not as good at xc or something? I personally I'm a 14:0x, 29:09 athlete who has only run under 24:50 once (and that was a 24:4x!! haha)

But with regards to the original question posed I definitely agree with you: he's quite capable of it with those PR's.

Wow your coach must've hated you for that come conference and NCAA xc regionals

When you develop an ambition to run a certain time (e.g. 25:00 for 8k) it certainly helps if there is some evidence that such a time may actually be possible for you with correct training.

(Let me just note in passing that there’s a big difference in performance between achieving 25:00/8k on track, road and x-country. And, that since the above training times are on the track, they assume the 8k event will take place on the same surface.)

But back to talking of ambitions …

It could be you have a decent short performance; maybe something like sub-2:05/800 or sub-4:10/1500. Both of which would suggest you have decent ability but lack the specific endurance to perform well at longer distances.

Or (less likely) you have a decent long performance; in this case (beginning to dream of 25:00/8k) decent long times might be (road) sub-34:00/10k or approx 1:14 HM. Which suggest a tendency for “strength” but need work at quicker paces to perform better at shorter events.

It should be understood that none of the above performances predict the ability to run 25:00/8k today (or even anytime soon), but they do suggest that – with the right work – you might be capable of such a time at some future date.

So, based on the idea that your ambition is based on something you have achieved so far, ask yourself; what’s your problem?

a) Better at shorter distances, performances tail off the longer the event

b) Decent at longer distance but don’t have the wheels for the shorter events

Or both? (In which case, what are you basing your 25:00/8k ambition upon?)

By way of an example, let me take what *&)yhIUGG just wrote:

“It seems like I have a speed limit. If I try to run Summer of Antonio style, short rest fartlek, say 10 x 500 in 1:50 (5:52 pace) with 100 in 40 sec jog rest, I only do about 5 before it seems like a race.“

This is not a “speed” limit, but indication of a lack of LTP / AnT (aka Lactate Threshold) development. It is very possible that if you were given a 40-60 secs standstill recovery instead of 100m float you could complete the session, but this would just further indicate your poor LTP (Lactate Turnpoint).

Without talking to Antonio (and I suggest you do that to get his feedback/advice), I can think of (at least) two things you might try:

1)Run a session of 10 x 500m with 100m jog in 40s and see what the average pace you can handle actually is (start cautious since you know that 10 x 1:50/500m is just not possible). This’ll give you a good idea of where you are (rather than where you WISH you are). Note that Antonio recommends to do these at your current 5k pace.

2)Stick to the pace Antonio advised, but begin with 3 x (3 x 500-100 in 1:50/40s) and jog 400m after every set of three reps. In time, cut the 400m jog to 200m jog. Then later aim for 2 x (5 x 500-100 in 1:50/40s) with 400m jog after a set of 5 reps. Then reduce the 400m jog to 200m jog. When you can eliminate the 200m jog after 5 reps and you’re doing the full set of 10 x 500-100.

I would go with my first recommendation; start from where you are.

But I repeat, this is not a speed problem, this is a stamina (Antonio refers to it as a resistance) problem. Your LTP/“LT” is not good enough to support this session (which suggests that 18:00/5k would not be that easy for you at present and makes me wonder why you chose the 1:50/500m pace).

However, if you genuinely cannot hit the example (short) performances (for 800 + 1500) I outlined above (and you would really need to if you hope to ever get to 25:00/8k), then you need to learn how to run fast. This is a skill you need to develop especially if you are a heel-striker.

You need to learn how to land further forward on your foot.

Running uphill helps to learn this because it becomes increasingly more difficult to heel-strike the steeper the hill. To get an idea, find a steep ~30 degree uphill with a hard tarmac surface (rather than soil/sand/gravel) and run up swiftly for 30-50m without letting your heel hit the ground. Compared to distance running, accentuate your knee lift (without exaggerating). Drive off the rear foot more like a light bound than a normal jog uphill.

Some (even good) distance runners can have real difficulty learning how to do this, so do persist and don’t give up because you “can’t get it”. Note that this is skill-learning (and not fitness training), so just run for 5-8 secs each rep and allow 60-90s recovery. You must be mentally/physically fresh when doing this, so don’t add it on to the end of your long run. Instead, do it BEFORE your aerobic run (but after 5-10 mins jog warm-up and some dynamic stretching).

Be cautious and do no damage to your lower-leg/Achilles (you won’t know for up to 2 days afterwards, so be cautious till you see the physical cost of the session). Don’t do too many reps, 6-10 x 30-50m is plenty for one session. Remember, it’s a skill, so doing it 1,000 times but badly, will not help. It’s a skill and some people get it quickly (1-3 sessions) and some take longer.

When you think you’ve got the hang of it, start running 10 x 100m on the flat with a minimum of 90 secs walk-back recovery using this newly learned mode of running. Any stretch of flat road will do; so no need for a track or to buy spikes. We’re not looking for a world-record here, but (aiming for 25:00/8k) you would expect to develop the skill to hit ~13 secs for 100m on demand (at least in the last 1-2 of the session). Whatever ever your 8k target, you want to be able to hit the kind of pace you would expect to run in a 300-400m race, at least for the last few reps of the session (although the earlier ones can be slower and build to quick efforts for the last 2 reps).

It’s okay to start each session with 2-3 reps on your 50m hill (if nearby) just to re-calibrate the skill, and even to run the first few reps as 60m rather than 100s.

At all times, remember, this is a skill. It has little to do with the fitness level that allows you to run a decent 10k. So doing 25 x 100m in 17s is not going to help you gain the ability to run 8 x 100m in 13s. Just stick to 8-10 x 100m and aim to improve the skill and run them faster as the weeks progress.

Learn how to move, as I have outlined above. And I am very aware it would be much easier if you saw what I was advising rather than just reading these words – I know most runners learn best by observing and copying, so posting some video clips might be an idea for the future.

Keep this skill session in every week. So now your week might look like this:

Tues: long endurance (as earlier)

Thurs: medium endurance (as earlier)

Sat: short and fast (as above)

Hope this helps.

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*&)yhIUGG,

10k of 200-200 in 45-60 is a good start, but you need to move it to 40-55s. Like this: 4-5 x 2k of 200-200 in 40-55s (2-3 mins walk/drink break between sets), then 2-3 x 3k of 200-200 at 40-55s (2-3 mins walk/drink break between sets), then 3x3k of 200-200 at 40-55w with 400m jog break, and so on … Do it once every 2-3 weeks instead of a medium endurance session.

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Hadd follower,

Yes, I am JH. Good catch. But don’t tell anybody. I’m not in the long-thread business anymore.

Summer blueprint,

Thanks, I should be able to work with that. I'll close with a few words on why I ended up trying 500s in 1:50 w/ 40 sec jogs.

A few years back, we had an e-conversation comparing myself to my high school team mates and concluded that with my lifetime PRs that I am on the FT side. So now I have worked hard to build endurance and my feelings of effort are all out of wack.

For example, fall of 2009 and fall of 2010 I ran the same 10k race with nearly identical (38:5X) results. In 2009, before endurance, the race was horribly painful from before the mile to the end. Pretty much all of my 5 and 10k have always felt this way.

In 2010, after endurance, the race was a very strange experience almost without pain. After the race, I was appalled at how little effort I expended even though I kept trying to speed up. This year, after my typical lower mileage winter, I have been shocked at how fast my fitness for the longer stuff has returned so I felt it was time to work toward 5k pace.

So I ran 6 x 1000 at whatever pace felt right with 200 jogging rest in 90 seconds. I averaged 3:47 with a slow of 3:48 and a fast of 3:45. These did not feel like a race and went through 500m at 1:53.5. So I set out to run the 10 x 500 between 1:53.5 and 1:50. I first one was 1:50. The second one 1:48 easier than the first and then things got difficult real fast...