Ran 2:31 after two years of running, only getting slower now..

What does a typical week look like for you?

What marathon specific and other fast running do you do?

Do you still have coordination problems if so that can stop progress quick

it's pretty typical marathon training(following Hudson's plan) with doubles

mon easy

tues intervals

wed. medium long

thurs easy

fri threshold

sat. easy

sun long

no coordination issues in last marathon or current training.

ran a 4miler two weeks ago that was 45 seconds off my PR. i'm ready to call it quits out of frustration, but REALLY want to break 2:30.

Dr Rock wrote:

it's pretty typical marathon training(following Hudson's plan) with doubles

mon easy

tues intervals

wed. medium long

thurs easy

fri threshold

sat. easy

sun long

Well it looks like you're doing no faster running at all.

That's probably the reason.

I can understand your frustration.

What were you doing differently when you were getting better results?

there's faster running.

intervals, threshold workouts, plus progression runs thrown in some wed., and Sun., AND hill sprints on Mon., which i forgot to mention.

How did you fix your issue with leg coordination? I ask because I have been having problems with it for a while. There is also a very lengthy thread on this injury. Many people have it and can't seem to get over it.

I'd take a good 6-8 months to focus on just shorter racing. 1500m on up to maybe 8k. Then maybe a few months on 1/2 marathon.

Once you seem like you've made some good improvement in those shorter distances go ahead and give a good training cycle for the marathon.

i was told i had scar tissue built up.

physical therapist recommended foam roller to break it up and leg swing exercises for coordination(side swings and front to back)to get muscles working together again. did this daily, sometimes twice, for two months.

Had Some Myself wrote:

I'd take a good 6-8 months to focus on just shorter racing. 1500m on up to maybe 8k. Then maybe a few months on 1/2 marathon.

Once you seem like you've made some good improvement in those shorter distances go ahead and give a good training cycle for the marathon.

i've kind of done that, twice. in spring of '09 i skipped spring marathon to focus on 10 mile - 25k. and '10 i summer and fall were focusing on shorter races. i just spent 7 weeks focusing on 4 mile where i just ran 45sec. over PR. i sort of feel like i've tried everything i should try.

then i wonder: when i dropped mileage, should i have kept it higher. when i focused on shorter distance, should i have kept focus on marathon. when i upped mileage should i have kept it lower. ect. ect.

Dr Rock wrote:

there's faster running.

intervals, threshold workouts, plus progression runs thrown in some wed., and Sun., AND hill sprints on Mon., which i forgot to mention.

I think the problem is your training.

J.R. wrote:

Dr Rock wrote:

there's faster running.

intervals, threshold workouts, plus progression runs thrown in some wed., and Sun., AND hill sprints on Mon., which i forgot to mention.

I think the problem is your training.

if so, what is the solution?

i've been following the training plans of an Olympic marathoner's coach, and an olympic marathoner.

It is not uncommon to have stretches where due to injury or other things, that you might plateau a bit. Let your body get back into it and completely heal. Your body is not a machine. I would be curious as to what your easy runs entail as well as how hard you are running your hard runs. Maybe take 3-5 months where you are concentrating on getting completely healthy, not killing workouts (but making them solid) and having good races leading up to your primary race. It sounds like you are still running productively, so it shouldn't take huge changes. But I guess you should realize many runners go through stretches like this...so best not to get mental about it think a pr is necessary all the time ( I realize it has been a while). I would back off a bit on intensity only really going crazy once every 2 weeks and trying to really push hard for races and see what happens over the next 6-8 months.

just doesn't seem like many runners plateau after two years and show no improvement after another three with solid training.

i'm pretty much healthy at this point already. little things here and there.

easy runs are usually 6:30 - 7:15 pace.

recovery and doubles usually all over 7min, avg 7:30 i'd say, sometimes 8 even.

i'm not totally naive to training principles. (Run hard on hard days, and easy on easy days) Plenty of marathon specific work. I've done and do plenty of reading on it, but i'm just not getting anywhere with it.

You know, people like your coaches worked their way up to the marathon, first running shorter distances in school, maximizing their speed over shorter distances before turning to the marathon later. In your case, jumping right into the marathon you never got a chance to maximize your speed. Dropping down for a few months isn't going to do it. People usually spend years running shorter distances before moving up. It could very well be that you've maximized your aerobic capacity but your shorter distance capabilities are far from being developed. For example, what is your mile time? You can do all the distance work you want but your ability to run a marathon is limited by your ability to run a mile or 5k or 10k. If your goal to is to run a marathon at 5:20 pace then obviously that's harder to do if you can only run mile in 4:40 as opposed to 4:20. You might want to spend a year running 1500s or 5ks developing speed and getting away from the marathon. Another thing is since you've been at it for years you might be as good as your going to get. The more and longer you run the more incremental improvement comes. 2:30 might be as fast as you're going to run. People do not improve on a straight line basis, particularly since you've been at it awhile and are in your 30s.

i hear ya. i realize my situation is unique in that i didn't start running until i was 26 and jumped right into the marathon. but at that point you don't build up to the marathon for 8 years. just hard to believe i ran my best marathon in my second year of running(though possible).

i haven't run an all out mile since '07 when i ran 5:05, and i regularly run faster than that in workouts(mile repeats @ 4:59). just haven't run all out.

my best times have been longer distance, pr wise, my 10 mile really being the best.

but for instance my 2:30 marathon indicates 15:26 5k, 20:11 4 mile, and 25:34 5 mile. while my pr's are 16:14, 20:48, and 26:24. ( i really haven't run a 10k while in shape).

my heart is in the marathon, i know that's my best event and i really want to run one in the fall. my last one was Feb. and i'm running around 50mpw right now.

What is this so called coordination problem like? (Just curious)

pops a good1 wrote:

What is this so called coordination problem like? (Just curious)

my left leg was not cooperating. it would shoot in different directions, not land properly. a very uncomfortable feeling and really too a lot of energy and focus to to try and keep it moving correctly, which it still wouldn't. it was like a misfire. just very weird and probaly only understandable if you've dealt with it. i felt like it drained my running a 1:14 opening in my 2:37 collapse. it's something you pretty much want to stop running when it sets in.

Dr. Rock, I think you answered the question yourself. Stop jumping into these long marathon build-up "programs" that are written for the masses and work on improving your basic speed. If you cannot run under 16:00 for 5K, you will not see the sunny side of 2:29. Do not ignore the importance of speed. You say you are running quality (intervals, thresholds), but how much of that is at sub-5:00 pace?

If I were you, I would dig up a couple of Canova's plans for his athletes and block off some time to really get after running fast, and I mean fast as in train like a sub-15:00 5K runner. It's a world of difference.

The other thing is that because of your background, you should have expected rapid improvement and then a major plateau because you do not have the traditional background of a distance runner. I think you may need to dedicate some months to pure base building (easy long, med long, hard short) to get some speed endurance.