Which is better for base training?

This would be for a high school runner both pre cross country and pre track.

The first. Although a mix of the two would be best.

60

60

75

60

60

90

45

I agree a composite of both would be best. Turn some of your 45min or 30min runs into a tempo/fartlek workout.

GO TO THE F***ING GYM ... if you just run you will never get good results.........

do some strides a couple times a week. Also, like the other guy said, a tempo run, or hills, or a fartlek once or twice a week won't kill you. Other than that, the plan with the varying times looks good.

SoM.

The first one but make sure that you vary the paces.

Both at the same time

That's only half a training schedule you posted. Thats about as good as listing just mileage. Start over again, figure out your goals first. If you are a hs 5k runner consider what you are training for and consider your shape. Depending on your shape that program can be 40 or can be 60 mpw. Whats the the terrain of your local courses? Are they hilly and twisting? Are they flat and designed for fast times? Do you lack basic speed? Are you an aerobic machine? Hows the weather in your area? Is there a team you can meet up with for workouts? Figure out all these answers before you write a training program.

I'm just wondering which would be best for aerobic development for a high school runner. For the first program you get a 12+ mile run, but the second one gives you daily runs of 8+ miles. I know over the winter I personally dropped the long run and just tried to run an hour a day when we didn't have practice and I think my fitness was way better than when I was changing it up and going super long one day and moderately long the rest (relatively speaking).

Why do you need a run of 12+ miles when at most your race will be 5k? First thing to go should be that long run. 40-60 minutes on a hilly loop can do much for you for a 5k rather than a 90 minute run on a flat road. You want to increase your aerobic power? Get steady aerobic mileage sandwiched between a few high end aerobic running. Make one run a fartlek, plan that, then have another run be a tempo run on a day you feel good. I prefer to have athletes hit up some hills over the summer (year round is even better) and that can be very intensive so I like to consider that a workout as well. You have to figure out what works for you though. We don't know where you live or how you trained before the summer. Just be smart.

Yeah man that's what I'm saying. I find that when I run very consistent mileage daily I tend to get much better at running. I see no point in practicing the long run because it just doesn't help me as much as a hill workout or a tempo run or something. Actually during the offseason, I run two workouts a week, varying from fartlecks to tempos to hill runs or cruise intervals. The rest though were hour runs of about 9.5 miles or so. It felt hard enough doing that.

Caiado wrote:

Why do you need a run of 12+ miles when at most your race will be 5k? .

This sounds like late 80s & 90s thinking. The answer is: because the 5k is 90+% aerobic and the more aerobic running you do, the better you will run races 1mi and up.

Which would you rather be?

Runner A can run 5:00/mi for 5k, not much of a kick.

Runner B can run 5:10/mi, can out kick anybody withing 8sec.

Answer: Runner A because he does not need a kick against runner B since he is 30sec ahead with 200 to go. No kick will make up the gap.

The extra 4 miles once a week will make you 30 seconds faster?

RealityCheck wrote:

Caiado wrote:

Why do you need a run of 12+ miles when at most your race will be 5k? .

This sounds like late 80s & 90s thinking. The answer is: because the 5k is 90+% aerobic and the more aerobic running you do, the better you will run races 1mi and up.

Which would you rather be?

Runner A can run 5:00/mi for 5k, not much of a kick.

Runner B can run 5:10/mi, can out kick anybody withing 8sec.

Answer: Runner A because he does not need a kick against runner B since he is 30sec ahead with 200 to go. No kick will make up the gap.

You just wrote a bunch of arbitrary numbers. None of that actually has to do with the best training physiology. In your world guys who run 30 mile long runs should beat guys who do 8 mile long runs over 5000 meters. It simply doesn't take ANYTHING into account. Furthermore, I suggested up to 60 mintues of hill loops which for the best hs runners will be well over 9 miles. You say late 80's early 90's as if the time period before was better than it is now. The truth is we are faster than we were in the 70's and it's because we learned to train smarter not harder. That's not an opinion, simply look at the all time lists at 5k now for the US. ELITE 5k guys are all averaging 80-100 over base, not 120-140. Some, like Lagat, are doing less than 75. Don't turn this into a typical letsrun MPW bs thread. Train better. Simple as that.

It will make you a stronger aerobic runner (many second per mile faster). It will teach your body efficiency, build capillaries, teach it to burn fat efficiently. Under 90min, you body will not fully convert to fat for fuel. That is why you do long runs. It was an example, but long runs will make you several seconds per mile faster because you will be able to sustain closer to maximum speed for longer. Lydiard said 2x90min/wk, 1x2hr+ during base training. Once you can run this much, you run it faster. Though it takes some time to get to that level.

RealityCheck wrote:

It will make you a stronger aerobic runner (many second per mile faster). It will teach your body efficiency, build capillaries, teach it to burn fat efficiently. Under 90min, you body will not fully convert to fat for fuel. That is why you do long runs. It was an example, but long runs will make you several seconds per mile faster because you will be able to sustain closer to maximum speed for longer. Lydiard said 2x90min/wk, 1x2hr+ during base training. Once you can run this much, you run it faster. Though it takes some time to get to that level.

Just to clear some things up. He's not training for a marathon so burning fat for fuel is negligible because he will have more than enough carbohydrates storage in his body to get him through the 5k. Lypolysis plays little role in that event. Secondly, he will get more than enough capillarization needed from consistent moderate mileage over the summer. You can't make a blanket statement like "long runs will make you faster" etc because it is silly. All training will make you faster unless it makes you injured. Do you really need to do a 15 miler for a 5k? Maybe, not not definitely. Your chance of injury in a young runner is exponentially higher when you start throwing in runs like that. Trust me, I use to be a Lydiardite for several years, got injured, and never ran to my potential. I do half the mileage I use to, just smarter, and I'm beating my old times. My runners follow similar programs. It works.

I agree that he is not training for a marathon. But he is asking about base training. Lydiard base makes no distinction between a 800/1500m runner or a marathoner. The difference comes when you start speed work. Until then, it is a lot of high aerobic running (not jog/walking 30mi).

You don't jump up to 100mi/wk without a foundation. If current ability is 70min at a solid pace, do that for the long run but work up to longer. 90min is a very good long run and it is essential to aerobic development. Having the ability to burn fat just gives more endurance when the body is tired which will happen in 1mi, 5k, or the marathon.

Point being, The original base Schedule 1 looks very good, very Lydiard. However, without the 90min run it is pretty lean.

Well what about the many people that don't follow Lydiard? I personally follow Daniel's and marathon conditioning is only for marathoners. I plan to run for 2-9 minutes in track and a hard 5 miles does more for me than a 90 minute run at 6:30 pace any day.