I didnt know he was such a nut. Granted he coached some great US marathoners, but it doesnt look like he had them doing anything revolutionary.
Reading the interview it seems like he and Bowerman are similar in their "oddness."
Did he simply have a cadre of REALLY good runners?
Ask Dickie Beardsley what he thought of him.
Aquafina wrote:
Granted he coached some great US marathoners, but it doesnt look like he had them doing anything revolutionary.
Does that suggest to you that he was merely lucky, or does it suggest to you "revolutionary" training isn't necessary to produce good marathoners?
Someone can probably break out the stats for this, but Squires is on a REAL short list of great American coaches.
Off the top of my head- (I'm definitely missing some)
Rodgers
Meyer
Beardsley
Hodge (2:10:59 if you haven't heard of him)
Either Vin or Tom Fleming, I'm pretty sure (maybe both)
Salazar in high school (he ran around 14:10, 8:51y, and made the World Jr Cross team off 60 mpw max, Squires was the one who told him "marathon for you")
Saying he coached "some great US marathoners" doesn't really do Squires justice. I can't think of too many coaches was as consistently successful with multiple athletes in the marathon as Coach Squires. The Hansons probably challenge for depth, but I don't believe Sell ever broke 2:10, whereas Squires has at least 3 sub-2:10s. Bob Larsen, in addition to Meb, coached two other guys under 2:10, I think (maybe Mendoza and Kirk Pfeffer? Someone more knowledgeable than I should confirm the names/PRs).
What I'm saying is that there are coaches who have great individual athlete pedigrees, there are coaches like the Hansons who have some serious depth. . . and there's Squires, who has both. I'm not saying he's the only one, but I can't think of many coaches to compare to his success in the marathon. As Squires said at his talk at the Boston Expo, "I had guys running 2:15 who couldn't get free shoes! Hell, they weren't even getting the uniforms for free, I charged 'em!"
Another great highlight- someone asked him if he thought the resurgence in American track running was manifesting itself in the marathon, too. Squires goes "I tell you, I'm not impressed. For all the guys we have running 28min for 10,000, how come 2:08 is a big deal?"
It could be, as some of our counterparts who ran in the late 70s and 80s keep telling us, that training really isn't that complicated. Shh! That doesn't sell magazines or books or fund research grants!
Not "lucky", he had too much success for that. But when great runners seek you out, you get to fish from a better pool.
can you link the article that you referenced?
Aquafina wrote:
but it doesnt look like he had them doing anything revolutionary.
Hey, how long will it take for you to catch on?
it isn't online yet.
here is an article from a blog and a thread.
http://distancerunningobserver.blogspot.com/2010/09/bill-squires-bill-rodgers-and-gbtc.html
A bit nuts, very lovable and yes eventually a bigger pool. But remember in the mid to late 70's there weren't a lot of college coaches that were willing to give up time and energy to do this stuff. (There still aren't)
Squires knows what he is doing...BB
As an example, Dick Mahoney was pretty good in college (winning the New England 3 mile at BC in 14-flat) but did not have the NCAA pedigree of Salazar or Bickford. In the banner year of 1979 he came in 10th at Boston with a 2:14. This type of performance was not particularly abnormal for those training with Coach Squires. Again, 2:14 by itself isn't that spectacular, but put a bunch of 2:10-2:14's together in a group, mix well, and a sub-2:10 can emerge, which is exactly what happened with Rodgers, Salazar, and Meyer.
Read the article. Very interested in the Squires method. Anyone have any other insight to the training?
http://www.bunnhill.com/bobhodge/Articles/GBTC.htmcanova disciple wrote:
Read the article. Very interested in the Squires method. Anyone have any other insight to the training?
In the RT article Squires actually mocks BR and his 120 mile weeks. So he was not the one telling Boston Billy to run that much.
Aquafina wrote:
I didnt know he was such a nut. Granted he coached some great US marathoners, but it doesnt look like he had them doing anything revolutionary.
Reading the interview it seems like he and Bowerman are similar in their "oddness."
Did he simply have a cadre of REALLY good runners?
I think that Scott Douglas did an admirable job capturing Coach Squires.
He wasn't doing anything "revolutionary" because there isn't anything revolutionary about it. Then or now.
Here is some of the coach from 1980, sounds the same to me. Unfortunately, reading the articles is nothing like the experience of having a beer with the man.
BILL SQUIRES; ; RUNNERS LOOK FOR HIM WHEN THEY NEED COACHING; [FIRST Edition]
Steve Marantz Globe Staff. Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext). Boston, Mass.: Apr 18, 1980. pg. 1
Abstract (Summary)
A friendship as old as theirs is resilient, it seems. When the Greater Boston Track Club began in August of 1974, [BILL SQUIRES] became its first coach. Soon, [Bill Rodgers] joined up and put his racing career in Squires' hands. He never regretted it.
Squires trained Rodgers from 1974 till the beginning of 1977, when Rodgers' racing schedule became too heavy for the training Squires required. Squires takes the European approach that runners should not be overraced and undertrained. His by-word is patience.'
Squires, 47, a former Arlington High School and Notre Dame athlete, has brought the BTC a long way since it started with seven runners in 1974. It is 300 members strong now, with 27 to 31 national class runners. Five of the top 11 finishers in the national cross-country championship last November in Raleigh, N.C., were with the BTC, a feat that amazed even Squires.
Full Text (1059 words)
Copyright Boston Globe Newspaper Apr 18, 1980
Bill Squires promises that he and Bill Rodgers are still speaking. Nothing
so trivial as a Frank Shorter jacket could come between them, now could it?
Somehow, Squires was wearing a Shorter jacket when he was photographed for
the cover of his book "Improve Your Running." Since Rodgers was out with his
own line of running wear, the Shorter picture wasn't exactly the type of
promotional help he needed from Squires - his former coach.
"I explained the whole thing to Bill," says Squires. "The shooting was early in the morning out in Oregon. It was cold, so I gave my jacket to one of the runners. But I needed something for the picture and a girl in the camera crew pulled a jacket out of her car. I didn't realize it was a Frank Shorter jacket.
"Bill saw the picture and said, Thanks a lot, you're a pal.' But he wasn't too upset."
A friendship as old as theirs is resilient, it seems. When the Greater Boston Track Club began in August of 1974, Squires became its first coach. Soon, Rodgers joined up and put his racing career in Squires' hands. He never regretted it.
Squires trained Rodgers from 1974 till the beginning of 1977, when Rodgers' racing schedule became too heavy for the training Squires required. Squires takes the European approach that runners should not be overraced and undertrained. His by-word is patience.'
In Rodgers' newly-released book, Marathoning,' ghosted by The Globe's Joe Concannon, Rodgers said, "I think one of the unique aspects of Bill Squires and his track program is that he gives his athletes moderate workouts with longer-than-average rest intervals between hard efforts."
These days, Rodgers still relies on Squires and the BTC for his premarathon training.
"When he wants to sharpen up he comes down about three weeks before Boston, and runs with his own teammates, who can challenge him," said Squires. "He's very fit, to say the least. There's no doubt he'll win again.
"I expect five of our runners (23 overall) to finish in the first 15 - Rodgers, Bobby Hodge, Dick Mahoney, Tim Donovan and Vinnie Fleming."
For the prospect of such a glorious Marathon does Squires give countless unpaid hours to the BTC runners. In his spare time, he is a professor of health science at Boston State, and a consultant for New Balance shoes.
Squires, 47, a former Arlington High School and Notre Dame athlete, has brought the BTC a long way since it started with seven runners in 1974. It is 300 members strong now, with 27 to 31 national class runners. Five of the top 11 finishers in the national cross-country championship last November in Raleigh, N.C., were with the BTC, a feat that amazed even Squires.
"It was a massacre," he said. "Those clubs from Oregon, Colorado and California were entered, and that's their field. It was like the Romanian hockey team coming over and tying the Bruins."
The cross-country success - and the imminent marathon success - are the fruits of the Squires' system that stresses internal competition.
"I have a feeder system," says Squires. "New athletes are always coming in. All of them are local athletes; they live within a 12- mile area. We have runoffs for the national meets. They have to run a certain race two to three weeks before the meet to get picked for it. There is an esprit de corps in our club - you have to perform. It matters less who you are. I have two new members every year that make the national team.
"It's a very close group because we see each other twice a week. Every Tuesday, and either Friday or on the long run Saturday. The members socialize a lot."
The BTC is strong enough, Squires feels, that it deserves its own facility. Now, it's dependent on Boston College, and occasionally Tufts and BU in the winter.
"I've been working on it," said Squires. "That's my dream - to get something for the club. Nothing elaborate. A small locker room, something covered. It doesn't have to be heated."
Nonetheless, Squires realizes that the best training facility for the Marathon is the Marathon course itself. He sends his BTC runners over it once a week.
"You run in all that wind all winter, and it makes you hard," said Squires. "Our runners learn how to attack those hills and they don't have the fear. So when it comes they're waiting for other runners to buckle and give in. Plus, they're running with four pounds of sweat clothes on in the winter, and come spring, they peel it off and they're running with four pounds less. It makes a difference.
"Like Lombardi used to say when it would rain or snow on practice days, We're blessed, because if it happens on Sunday we'll have done it.' He would take the risk of an odd sprained ankle, but when it came to that Sunday they destroyed the competition."
Come Monday, Squires will be doing just as Lombardi did - fighting for the winning edge.
"I go and stop at four spots on the course," said Squires. "The starting line, 7 miles out, 14 miles, 21 miles, and the finish.
"I tell my runners how far back they are, give them some water and a sponge, and say a funny word or two to let them forget what it's about.
"I make a pretty good analysis of the people ahead that I feel are falling back, and I tell my runners what to expect. Like, I'll say, "Run with this guy up here, he's fading and you can catch him, and I'll see you at 21 miles and we can make another assessment.' I'm a health scientist and I've run a few marathons. Very seldom do I give bad information. I can tell by their leg temp, respiration, and eyes, and other things that tell me their bodies have had it.
"The last time I talk to them is at the bottom of BC, with five miles to go. Last year Bobby Hodge was in fifth place at BC and I told him the two runners in front of him were gonna fade. I said, Go for broke, you'll get third.' And he did. But if I didn't tell him that, he would have stayed where he was."
Outstanding article. Thanks.
Wow, what a great read-- thanks for sharing! Having read Bill R.'s training logs and the prolific racing of him and others from the GBTC, I was always under the impression that this is what Squires advocated, but I guess that's not true? BR's actual workouts seem fairly modest, with mostly just mileage and recovery between lots of races (the races being the workouts). It worked for him! Having talked to Patti D. about training, it makes more sense what she means, and that BR was eventually training/racing on his own terms. Interesting.
So I'm guessing it wasn't Squires idea (or he didn't agree to) BR running 3 marathons in 6 weeks in late 1976?
jaguar1 wrote:
It worked for him! Having talked to Patti D. about training, it makes more sense what she means, and that BR was eventually training/racing on his own terms. Interesting.
Of course.
Coaches get far too much credit when an athlete is successful and far too much blame when the athlete fails to achieve the desired result.
I have not known or encountered many successful athletes and I have known many, who were not the ones in the drivers seat in the whole coach/atlete relationship. Especially as the athlete got older and matured.
Who do we run for, ourselves or the coaches?
Please don't construe any of what I just said to mean that we did not all benefit from coaching.
Very true. The athlete eventually figures out what works for him or her, to float the boat! But the coach is the reigns, the creative second brain who sees the big picture. It's interesting to hear insight of the dynamics of their relationship and how it unfolded. Have to get Squires latest book now!
jaguar1 wrote:
So I'm guessing it wasn't Squires idea (or he didn't agree to) BR running 3 marathons in 6 weeks in late 1976?
hmmmm, it sounds like someone is searching for justification for their own behavior?
Keep up the good work.