I want to introduce race specific work in our team's training in a few weeks. I'd like the earlier sessions to be run at early season race pace, but I don't them to be too expensive or demanding in terms of overall load.
Which workout has a lighter training load and would be a better choice for an early season race specific session:
A: 3x(5x200)with 45 seconds between reps and 5 between sets
or
B: 15 x 200 with 2 min recovery.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Get one of those tester gadgets.
The motorboat workout.
Choice B for sure.
200m, 2mn between.
They wont be lactic with such a long rest especially if it comes after a base phase.
Thanks hoji. That's what I thought.
It seems a new trend in training is to set up race specific work in sets with short rep recovery and long set recovery. For example, 3 x (5 x 300) with 1 min recovery and 5 min between sets. Jay Johnson advocates this and Canova sets up workouts like this.
What is the physiological rationale/purpose behind this?
working out at mile pace without putting to much stress on the body. Same advantage as the lactic workout without the pain.
There is no such molecule as lactic acid produced in exercize.
Lactate production reduces acidosis.
Lactate lowers acidity because lactate is just disassociated lactic acid (which produces free hydrogen +ions).
Lactate does not dissociate. The hydrogen ions come from the anaerobic ATP turnover. Lactate is a separate molecule, which when produced takes up H+ not the other way around.
blood ph wrote:
I want to introduce race specific work in our team's training in a few weeks. I'd like the earlier sessions to be run at early season race pace, but I don't them to be too expensive or demanding in terms of overall load.
Which workout has a lighter training load and would be a better choice for an early season race specific session:
A: 3x(5x200)with 45 seconds between reps and 5 between sets
or
B: 15 x 200 with 2 min recovery.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Do session B first. Each effort should be slightly quicker
Right--I'm an English teacher and high school coach and I'm just beginning to study the physiology.
I've seen a lot of training lit that correlates intensity of anaerobic work with mmoles of blood lactate, but you're saying the H+ ion lowers blood ph. i get that.
The lit also says that intense anaerobic work erodes aerobic efficiency, and I don't want to lose aerobic ground in the early season.
I'm really concerned with the practical application. I want to set up an early season race rhythm workout that won't fry the team or have a high cost in terms of aerobic development.
According to Hoji, workout B is better for this.
blood ph wrote:
It seems a new trend in training is to set up race specific work in sets with short rep recovery and long set recovery. For example, 3 x (5 x 300) with 1 min recovery and 5 min between sets. Jay Johnson advocates this and Canova sets up workouts like this.
What is the physiological rationale/purpose behind this?
This isn't new. Lots of Brits were doing this in the late 80s and early 90s. I think one of the Harry Wilson / Ovett books explained that you could do quite a bit more hard work by putting things into sets.
I'd say that the rationale is more about 'realism' than physiology.
The idea is that each set is quite specific to (say) 1500m and similar in length, with just enough rest to get you through it. Then you have a decent recovery and do it again. The second and third sets get to be a pretty good simulation of what that race feels like.
These sessions can also be good when you want to practice tactics - they don't all have to be even paced.
Oh, yes, Quenton Cassidy did it that way too in the forest: 100 jog between reps, lap jog every fifth.
why do this? wrote:
According to Hoji, workout B is better for this.
Agree.
Classic progression towards 1500m might be to repeat each of these 2-3 times then move to the next one. That way they get plenty of practice doing relaxed running at race pace early on, and you gradually crank up the 'speed endurance/toughness/lactate' or whatever you want to call it.
1. Lots of 200s with 30sec
2. 2-3 x (5x300) [1min, 5min]
3. 2 x (4x400) [1min, 5min]
4. 2 x (3x500) [1:30, 5min]
After that, either race, or if races are not available, do things like 1000-600-4x400 with long rests.
The relative speed for each athlete that these are run is what determines if and how much the workout will be lactic acid training. Workout B will allow the runner to run the 200 repeats faster, but there is virtually no aerobic maintenance or development with this work. And if the workout is a true lactic acid shock, it may take upwards of 3 to 5 days for your athletes to truly recover.
I would have this Workout in the afternoon, with a healthy 2mi warmup and 2 mi cool down. If any of the runners are 60 mpw or more, then they would also need an AM run to supplement their mileage for the day.
I would also have a lactate threshold run within a day or two before this workout, so that after the recovery from this speed workout (two days), your runners won't go too long without a quality lactate threshold run. A runner needs a LT run every 2 to 5 days in order to not lose any aerobic ability.
This would be my week:
Thursday - LT run 5 or more miles
Friday - Recovery Run
Saturday - (AM Run for higher mileage kids)
PM Speed workout, Total miles for afternoon session - 6 miles
Sunday - Recovery Run
Monday - Long Run (also, Recovery)
Tuesday - Short LT Run of 2 to 4 miles (5 days since last LT run), possibly followed by some light speed work.
Wednesday - Recovery Run
This schedule will integrate nicely if most of your meets are on Saturday. If you're kids are racing properly (ie going out fast enough), then every meet should be a lactic acid shock (until the last one or two that really count).
blood ph wrote:
Thanks hoji. That's what I thought.
It seems a new trend in training is to set up race specific work in sets with short rep recovery and long set recovery. For example, 3 x (5 x 300) with 1 min recovery and 5 min between sets. Jay Johnson advocates this and Canova sets up workouts like this.
What is the physiological rationale/purpose behind this?
Harry Wilson discussed this sort of workout in his book, "Running My Way". According to him, Steve Ovett and Tony Summers said that the interval workouts they were doing were taking too long to achieve the desired result.
Thanks for all of the clear explanations and suggestions. All very helpful!
Recent commentary in Journal of Applied Physiology about lactate and H+...
http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2011/02/28/japplphysiol.00242.2011.full.pdf+html
Dr.S wrote:
Recent commentary in Journal of Applied Physiology about lactate and H+...
http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2011/02/28/japplphysiol.00242.2011.full.pdf+html
Hey, this thread was about training. Take your ex phys wanking elsewhere!
why do this? wrote:
Right--I'm an English teacher and high school coach and I'm just beginning to study the physiology.
I've seen a lot of training lit that correlates intensity of anaerobic work with mmoles of blood lactate, but you're saying the H+ ion lowers blood ph. i get that.
The lit also says that intense anaerobic work erodes aerobic efficiency, and I don't want to lose aerobic ground in the early season.
I'm really concerned with the practical application. I want to set up an early season race rhythm workout that won't fry the team or have a high cost in terms of aerobic development.
According to Hoji, workout B is better for this.
When muscle glycogen and blood glucose are broken down anaerobically (this happens all the time even when you are in deep sleep) there are two main fuel sources produced. Lactate plus an anaerobic supply of ATP. The lactate both a precursor to aerobic ATP production and reconversion to liver glycogen.
Saying that intense anaerobic work erodes aerobic efficiency is just wrong. Well trained atheletes do both in complementary ways.
Dr.S wrote:
Recent commentary in Journal of Applied Physiology about lactate and H+...
http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2011/02/28/japplphysiol.00242.2011.full.pdf+html
No mention there of the change in ratio of glycolysis to glycogenolysis when a muscle cell fatigues which is surely a main contributing factor in H+ production?