Is it expected to feel flat during races/workouts while running higher mileage?

I've been wondering the same thing recently. While I am doing higher base-phase type mileage (80+) for the past 7 weeks, I have also attempted a couple races indoors where I felt I did not have another gear and ran about 40sec. slower than my PR in a 3k. Meanwhile my workouts have been decent, but not stellar, slightly slower than they were in cross country (when I was doing 70mpw). I think once one backs off the mileage and prepares for meaningfull races then freshness kicks in and workouts become easier, races become better.

Maybe I'm missing something, but 40 seconds off a PR is a lot in a 3k. Unless there is a good, obvious reason why you are slower right now than you used to be, you may want to think about backing off. Otherwise you just might dig yourself into a whole, and it can be a royal pain in the a$$ to find your way back.

bump

Yes. You need to recover while your body is absorbing the

training.

Feeling flat during high mileage blocks is perfectly understandable. IF you're still adapting to the high mileage and not tapering off, it's not as though you're in the midst of the races where your time goals are particularly important anyway, and it's all just a part of the training. I know my indoor races are often run feeling flat while I keep my mileage up to prepare for outdoor track.

However, two minutes in a 10k is a HUGE amount. There is no way an increase in mileage should make you two minutes slower, all other things equal. That is not "flat" that is something else. Flat is like "oh i didn't feel sharp and couldn't really turn over that extra gear"...2 minutes is "something is wrong"

My guess is you are running TOO much extra mileage right now for your body to handle. Sounds like overtraining to me. Some extra volume, if applied properly, shouldn't make you slower than previous years, it'll just make you a little less sharp and you'll get faster later in the season with a taper.

Also you're probably still young enough where from age 36 to 37 a 2 minute drop-off can't be blamed on aging.

Maybe it was because he only slept for 4 hours the night before...

Can you tell us your 5k and 10k time? That will help us to see, what is going on.

Well, the 10k that I did recently was 36:30 and last year was a tad under 35 min.

How can I tell if my body is able to absorb the increase in mileage or if I'm just running more miles that I should? I don't expect to see quick results from running more mileage but I don't want run more miles than I should if it's just going to hamper my training.

Cut the mileage to 5 one day and the next day run 10 miles

with the last 2 at 5:50, 5:45.

Or cut the mileage to 7, 5, 4, 3 and run 3 mile warmup,

6 times 1 mile @ sub 6. If you are burnt from the miles

or you lost speed from running slow, nows the time to cut

the mileage

fred wrote:

Or cut the mileage to 7, 5, 4, 3 and run 3 mile warmup,

6 times 1 mile @ sub 6. If you are burnt from the miles

or you lost speed from running slow, nows the time to cut

the mileage

I'm confused here. What do you mean by cut the mileage 7, 5, 4, 3?? You mean run 7 one day, 6 the next and so on??

Any thoughts on if running without taking any extended recovery might have anything to do with it? I've been running consistently over 70 mpw for about 6 months now with the longest without running being about 3 days.

I'm starting to think that I've hit that age where the wheels just fall off. Judging from what I've read from past threads, it usually happens somewhere after 35??

The wheels haven't fallen off. Where's the work at various

paces. All the guys in the city I lived in who ran 13:35 to

14:35 did specific work at those speeds like 6 times 1000

etc plus tempo workouts. You have a base, where's the

transitional and specific workouts?

Almost 2 minutes is a big difference in a 10k, assuming that the courses were fairly similar and so were the weather conditions.

I would ask yourself the following:

#1. How many SOLID hours of sleep are you getting a night? do you frequently wake up a lot or have trouble falling asleep?

#2. Do you have moderate soreness that isn't necessarily an injury but just in general?

#3. Do you have any joint/muscle pain?

#4. Are you more tired in general during the day and lack your normal energy even from a year ago?

#5. Have you shown a decrease in performance? (yes, we already know this)

#6. Do you have less of a sex drive? (it does matter)

#7. Do you have a decrease in appetite?

... There are other symptoms but those are some of the biggest. Also stuff like moodiness, general depression (doesn't have to be serious but just even a small amount)...

One really good indicator is if your HR is off. Do you know your normal HR level? I would check it first thing each morning when you wake up this week. Log your HR and compare it to what you know to be normal. ALSO, if you are unsure of your normal/healthy resting HR, you can try what is called the Rusko Test. What you do is pick a time of day you have a free block of 15 minutes or so. Lay down on the floor/bed for 10 minutes and just relax. After 10 minutes, record your HR. Stand up. Wait 15 seconds then record it again. Do the same at 90 seconds and then one last time at 2:00mins. If you are overtrained, studies have shown that you will have a definite increase in HR (at least most overtrained athletes TEND to). It will be a good 10bpm or greater than it was when you first recorded it after the 10 minutes.

I'll have to try that Rusko test.

About my HR, I checked it randomly with a blood pressure monitor right after I wake up. It's usually around 55bpm, which is about normal for me. Even on days following a hard effort, it usually doesn't go over 60.

I get about 5-6 hours of sleep a night. I know I should get more but I'm never really tired during that day. When I did the race this morning, I only had about 4 hours of sleep and didn't even set my alarm to wake up. My average pace hasn't changed all that much from last year, I still run around 7min pace comfortable for most runs.

Nothing else abnormal really stands out from the other things you brought up.

Hmm...

When was the last time you had blood work done and checked your hematocrit levels? One thing I a lot of athletes (especially runners) are not aware of is that you can be iron deficient WITHOUT anemia. This does have a marked difference on not only your performance levels but also your adaptation to endurance training in general. One study I read very recently tested a group of 150 runners. 75 of them did not have normal hematocrit levels; just under 40 of the runners (I think it was 39) were Fe-deficient without anemia.

Granted, iron deficiency is less common in men but you are training at a demanding level. I would not count this problem out. One problem with detecting this is that even if the level of Fe in your blood is normal, the level in your entire body can still be low. You can also have low ferritin levels, which is a protein that helps enable your body to store the iron. OR, you can have a low transferrin level (which is also a protein but it helps transport Fe in your blood). When you are iron deficient, the sTfR

(serum transferrin receptors) levels are higher.

This isn't obvious on a normal blood panel so you would have to discuss this in detail with your doctor if you feel necessary and then have the appropriate tests run. After only 4-6 weeks of FeS04 supplementation each of the women were performing better on the endurance test they were given before the supplements. They also slept better and had better energy levels. They didn't show very obvious signs of anemia or iron deficiency (chronic fatigue or muscle soreness). I thought this study was really helpful because I wasn't aware just how detrimental a high sTfR level is to performance and adaptation to endurance training. If you want to take a look at it I can download it and e-mail it to you... but I can't send the link it's through my school's database.

Hit your max heart rate in intervals once a week. Full recovery.

vfdssd wrote:

My average pace hasn't changed all that much from last year, I still run around 7min pace comfortable for most runs.

Nothing else abnormal really stands out from the other things you brought up.

This could be the problem.... Your "comfortable" pace for most runs is probably too fast relative to your ability. You could get away with it at lower mileages but it's taking its toll now. When increasing the mileage you need to also slow down the paces of most runs a bit.

Based on your times even a year ago you should be running about 8 min pace or slower on easy days. Even Daniels whose E paces are almost too fast for many people, would say you should be around 7:30 pace. That extra 30 seconds a mile may not seem like much but it has an additive effect and takes a toll.

I noticed I got much faster by slowing WAY down on most runs of the week. It may seem counter intuitive but it works.

You don't need to neglect speed even when doing higher mileage. Just doing some fast 8x100m striders a couple days a week won't kill you and will help maintain some "pop" in your legs. And similar to what another poster said, doing even a minimal workout once a week will help even when building a base.

I had my blood tested a few years ago and it was normal. That was before a upped my mileage though. I don't feel fatigued at all during the day like I mentioned before.

I'm curious to find out how much of a slow down is considered normal as part of just growing old? Everyone seems to be in agreement that 2min in a 10k over a course of a year is too much of a time difference. But what would be considered normal?? When the wheels just fall off, what effect down this have in racing times? Is there a gradual decline over a few years or do times just drop off?

Also, like I mentioned before. I have a race in about a month. What should I be doing now until then to prepare for it? Cut back on mileage or do continue running on not so fresh legs and just do a taper?

No you shouldn't feel flat from the higher mileage during workouts. The whole purpose of higher mileage is to improve endurance so that more fast work can be done. You either need fewer hard days, or a bit of short sharp stuff to put some zip in your running.