50+ Weekly Training Thread (for week ending 9-jan-2011)

Not an impressive week here. 20 miles in 2 days before a bout of the flu put me on my butt.

What Bateman, Magill, and others are doing is critical in challenging and redefining the definition of “old” by society at large. I cannot stress how important this is given that much of what you expect for your life and what is reinforced by your peers actually comes to pass.

Aging is not a disease! I’ve been shouting that one for a while. Ha ha.

Ok, hopping down off my soapbox for now….

On improvements here, the topic? I don’t know. The very nature of formus and threads is somewhat tenuous to begin with. Perhaps it is more organic, shapes itself as much as responding to some “gardening”.

I am very impressed with Keith Bateman's progress since turning 50. Here I am thinking 'this is it' after each race, thinking I'll never run this fast again. Maybe I won't give it up just yet!

Just getting back to the basic's of re-building my base this week. Got in 71 miles in a horrible weather week. Every night was cold/dark/snowy & breezy. Pretty much easy running except for Wednesday's 12 and Saturday's 14 over hills and new snow. Funny thing...our area was hammered with Lake Effect snow Saturday. 10 miles west received 30", we got about 10", 10 miles east had about 4". Rather than fight the snow, I drove 10 miles east...

It would be nice if there was more participation in our thread. I know there are more guys out there than the few 50+ posters we have each week.

Have a good week,

Dave

i had a pretty good week. i'd like my mileage higher (56 mi this week), but it's probably appropriate while focusing on the mile for another two weeks. most of the six runs were on frozen and/or snowy trails, but tuesday was a 4x800 workout at mile pace for first 600 of each rep and faster for the final 200, followed by a single 400. i would have liked to have been a little faster, but ended up with very close to 3x44s+41s 800s, followed by a 1:22 400.

apparently this set me up okay, because sunday was another attempt at the mile in a local all-comers meet, where i PR'd with 5:43 in a large although spreadout heat, so at least i got a bit of experience with passing people even if not learning what to do if boxed in. two weeks until the hartshorne masters mile, which should feature a much tighter field of around ten women 50 and older. i know i'll be at a serious disadvantage when it comes to strategic racing, but it will be an interesting learning experience. i'm really looking forward, however, to getting off the track and back into ultra mode, which is what i truly enjoy. oh, as a side note, at one point yesterday i was warming up with my chiro/ART guy and took the opportunity to point out exactly where my current pain is so he could better address it at my appt on wednesday; instead, he took me directly over to the high jump pit and worked me over for at least 20 minutes. ouch! but then the aaaah of relief (and now a black-and-blue butt). what a great guy!

wow re bateman. as for inspiration, i don't know who all will be there for any of the heats at hartshorne, but i'm happy that my race will come before the men and the younger masters women, because i'm looking forward to enjoying the show!

as for improvements to the thread, i also wish for greater participation -- the weekly women's thread is suffering a similar fate. maybe we need to bash one another to show the true LRC spirit? (just kidding; that's definitely not my style.) i enjoy the weekly topics here and how we share our stories.

I don't know why, but keep coming back to this thread.

Remember a few years ago it was more or less combined with the masters weekly thread, but then split off? Maybe when they start turning 50 we should recombine.

Solid week, with moderate temperatures, to start the year.

classic ski: 75 km (include one V02 max workout, reps totaling about 20 min, and one 20K classic race (1:10:40/4th overall and 7 min ahead of US masters 10K 50-54 champ, a good day).

Run: 17 Mi on three easy runs (knee is slowly getting better)

skate ski: 34 km, including 17K yesterday with my 13 yr old son, who kept right up.

Weights: 0:40 min

OK. Sounds like several of us, at least, are of like mind that we'd like to have more particpation on the thread.

What I enjoy about the thread is exactly as NLS pointed out. I love following along all of your running journeys, regardless of how mundane (mundane? um, ever read NLS' posts? OK, besides her) you may think they are. It's validating to know that there are people of grand master status that are still keen on training with an eye towards improving, not just "hanging on". It gives me some idea about what kind of ballpark of training is reasonable amount to shoot for (and it seems like I'm still pretty low on the volume scale). But mostly its just very pleasureable to interact with a group of people that I feel some accountablility to, just another thing to keep me from slacking off. I look forward each week to making a post on what I've done and look even more forward to your alls posts; it is a bright spot during the week.

To that end, it seems we've gotten kind of stale in just posting and sitting back. Kind of like a circle group in which everyone shares, but there isn't a lot of dialogue. I think a bit of banter would be good, probably not bashing, but a bit of cajoling when necessary, this is LRC as we know. So while we do talk back and forth some, I'd like to see more of it, and not just a hearty "way to go", although that's nice, too.

I also think that there is a reason to maintain a thread for 50+ers. The experiences that we share and physical challenges that we face do differ from our younger colleagues. It's nice to have a group where we can talk with others in our peer group without having to wade throught the inapt advise of 18 year olds.

OK, but now I'm getting longwinded and boring, but those are just a few of my thoughts to through out there.

lucKY2b wrote:

through out there.

Er, throw out there.

Fellow geezers/geezettes.

I posted once here, last year, and haven't come back too often.

But since more participation is now requested...

First, my last weeks training:

Sun 3k 9:22 BU indoor meet, 12 mi total

Mon-Fri am 4mi, pm 8mi pace 7:30 to low 6's.

Sat am 9mi with 8x 1min 12mph on treadmill. pm 4 mi easy

total 85 mi

Now for the underlying question of this thread,

which seems to be:

What can runners over age 50 run?

For me, it depends on the mileage. I wrote last year in praise of mileage,

averaging 80-90 at the time,

then got injured during indoor season racing during 100 mile weeks,

then injured again running Boston with

my wife at an unaccustomed pace.

After recovering from all this my base was shot.

And my performance this year shows it

(9:20 best 3k this year vs 9:09 last year, and let's not discuss the difference between Lexington and Charlotte).

You can't ask for a more robust experiment, or a fairer outcome.

I run better with more running, and worse with less.

So now I'm trying to run more while being less stupid.

I think many older runners cave to the received idea that we're fragile because we're old. No. Both times I got hurt because I'm greedy/romantic, not because I'm old, dammit!

Seriously, everyone is fragile. Look at Ritz. The key is to learn your injury patterns. And then run around them a whole lot, for example by running slower, or doing shorter runs twice a day, maybe avoiding long runs or speed.

And not trying to train for Boston and indoor track at the same time.

But find a way to run more.

(Another myth: we get slow because we lose our speed, so we gotta work on the speed. That is senior-killer number one. Whether you've lost speed or not, mileage comes first. Speed without mileage gives you big oxygen trucks with narrow capillary roads, making the trucks useless.)

As the mental barriers to hard training fall, thanks to the inspiration of guys like Bateman and Magill and others, we will see

(and are already seeing, as in Charlotte)

a lot of outstanding 50+ runners in the next few years,

and it will change the way we think about that age of a runner.

I'm WAY slower than you, but I think you are right. For me, miles seem to be the most beneficial. I've lost a lot of speed the last few years, and I think a big part of it is the increased working and decreased mileage. For me, more miles mean less me - which is easier to propel faster. I'm trying to increase my mileage now and I know I'm going to hit a lot of days when my legs are tired. Like today, for instance - I had a good week and a 14 miler on trails (which takes about 15-20 minutes longer than on the roads) and today, my feet stumbled a few times. Eventually, I hope that I'll adjust.

The men's 50+ xc race at Charlotte was amazing. I was shocked at seeing how far up those guys where. Our men's 50s just rocked and they were WAY up there. Very impressive (and inspiring).

Right now, I'm only around 60 miles and I know that I have to start averaging above 70 to feel it. I'll report back later how it's going.

My week in review was a mixed bag of high and low.

Sunday; Great 2 hour ski with a 50YO gal friend. We tore it up skating at near race intensity

Monday;52 minutes on the spin trainer.

Tuesday; 3 miles easy trail running

Weds; Thurs; swatted down by flu/cold like episode.

Friday; 1:30 Classic skiing

Sat; AM 2 mile dog trot with the older Border collie

PM 21 minutes on the spin trainer, including a Tabata session

Sunday; AM; Another 2 mile dog trot.

PM; 2:20 on the Classic skiis with the Bride. Fartlek type effort; worked the uphills hard, concentrated on feeling relaxed and rhythmic on the flats and downs.

After following this thread and the main Master's thread for roughly 3 years, I think I see the benefit to having a benevolent overseeing fiqure like "Old Man By The Sea".

The Master's thread faltered during OMBTS's absence, and is returning to broader participation since his comeback.

Could it be that even the sundrenched, race hardened. letsrun calloused, Master's in our midst respond to a few positive strokes now and then????

In any case, I really do enjoy the camaraderie, from a distance ,this thread provides. Having a consistent central figure to guide it, as BHRR, did initially, may yield a greater level of participation.

MY long winded.02.

Go PACK, GO.

(Another myth: we get slow because we lose our speed, so we gotta work on the speed. That is senior-killer number one. Whether you've lost speed or not, mileage comes first. Speed without mileage gives you big oxygen trucks with narrow capillary roads, making the trucks useless.)

I read somewhere (if I can find the links, I'll post them), that as we age, our average running cadence doesn't really change, what changes is our average stride length. Our stride length, according to these articles, shortens because we've become less flexible.

Anyway...I'll hit 63 in a couple of weeks. been on the roads since HS way back when.Hadn't really raced for about 20 years until this past fall. Ran a 21:20 hilly 5k and felt pretty good about it. Currently building up my way too neglected base, and would love to go under 20:00 for that distance at some point this year.

i continually find it interesting to hear people's thoughts and opinions on the slow-down process as we age. having come to running somewhat late in the grand scheme of things (started running at age 38 and actually training at 43), i find that i'm still getting faster at age 50, hitting a new PR in some distance or other nearly every year. i'm sure my wheels will fall off sometime, but i'm enjoying the ride in the meantime and appreciate every day i can get outside and play on the trails. so i guess the goal is to keep up the mileage, do speed and tempo work, eat well, stretch moderately, allow for plenty of recovery, and -- oh yeah -- live life, enjoy friends and family, and keep a good attitude.

it's really nice to see all the new contributors this week. perhaps all we needed to do is ask for more participation. welcome (and welcome back) everyone (really nice 5K, mr (ms?)-seven-digit-number; it'll be great to learn of your progress this year). thanks also to lucKY2b for actually enjoying my long-windedness rather than making me forced into the mold of only listing daily workouts. speaking of which, monday i finally strapped on my snowshoes and went for an hour-and-a-half jaunt in the national forest. it would have been really nice had there been more snow, but instead the mildly covered trails still featured frozen-in footprints, which make for hard going, whatever might be on your feet. the outing resulted in a few new aches and pains, but hopefully they're precursors to greater strength rather than injury.

no longer stressed wrote:

i continually find it interesting to hear people's thoughts and opinions on the slow-down process as we age. having come to running somewhat late in the grand scheme of things (started running at age 38 and actually training at 43), i find that i'm still getting faster at age 50, hitting a new PR in some distance or other nearly every year. i'm sure my wheels will fall off sometime, but i'm enjoying the ride in the meantime and appreciate every day i can get outside and play on the trails. so i guess the goal is to keep up the mileage, do speed and tempo work, eat well, stretch moderately, allow for plenty of recovery, and -- oh yeah -- live life, enjoy friends and family, and keep a good attitude.

Here's my 5K progression/regression from age 19 to 52. Probably fairly normal for a long-time runner. Age grading better and better as I get older, but at the same time I feel more and more lame and feeble. Hoping to be sub 17:20 again this year.

19 - 17:20 (50-60)

20 - 16:15 (50-70)

21 - 16:14 (60-90)

22 - 16:14 (70 to 100+)

23 – 16:30 (70-80)

24 - 15:40 (60-70)

25 - 15:28 (75-90)

26 - 15:53 (45-50)

27 - 15:13 (45-50)

28 - 15:18 (40-50)

29 – 16:03 (40-45)

30 – 16:02 (45-50)

31 -15:34 (40-50)

32 - 15:43 (45-50)

33 – 15:44 (40-50)

34 – 15:50 (40-50)

35 – 16:21 (35-45)

36 – 16:32 (35-45)

37 – 16:24 (30–40)

38 – 16:49 (30-40)

39 – 17:08 (40-45)

40 – 16:21 (40-50)

41 – 16:28 (40-50)

42 – 16:21 (40-50)

43 - NA/mostly injured (but 36:30 10K)

44 – injured

45 – 17:51 (25 – 30)

46 – 17:40 (40–45)

47 – 17:03 (60–65)

48 – 17:17 (60–70)

49 – 17:28 (40–50)

50 – 17:19 (65–75)

51 – 17:01 (50–60)

52 – 18:06 (30–40, 1 month after 5 month injury layoff)

AK-52 wrote:

Age grading better and better as I get older...

So projecting forward, at what age does it go over 100% ? :)

Muddy Girl, I hear you about "less me".

All that time off made too much me, and since I have no discipline about eating it took a while to run that me away. And many weeks of tired legs with a couple of falls on trails too. I've read your postings before- you seem to have a lot of experience, so hopefully you can coax your body into this new routine.

AK-52, that was a fascinating list. I admire your consistency over the years.

It seems the mileage correlates better with your times after age 40.

And that the slowdown is not straight down. You sometimes improve from one year to the next.

I used to think it would be really tough to handle slowing down, but I find as much pleasure as ever in just running faster than last year.

Even in faster days I was a decent but not great runner, so it was always just about improvement anyway. And local improvement is enough to get me out the door. (Except today's blizzard=dreadmill.)

I second your sentiment about AK-52, reeder. Really great to see that kind of consistency. I have a huuuuge gap in my history.

Muddy Girl, I often wonder how many of ones miles are more about weight management/reduction, and how much is actual physical improvement. I wonder if rlb (where's he at?) is just a much more disciplined dietician, so that he gets a lot out of his fewer miles.

NLS. You know I always love your posts. Someday if we're ever in the finger lakes region of New York (which could be a while), I'd love to join you for a run through the national forests there. I really can't complain much about running through all the picturesque horse farms, though. It's pretty pastoral.

Glad to have a couple of new posters step into the fray, and with some sage advice, too. I here you about speed killing. Pretty much the story of my demise this fall. Got greedy in late July, and tried to push myself to faster than my body was willing to train. Have had a niggle ever since.

Part of what makes a thread work is just feeling the pulse. So I know some people are like "eh, I'm not doing much", but hey, that's life, so just give a shout out, or snide remark, or something. Why should Gibbons have all the fun?

Well, all of us are basically our own experiments and what works well for one runner might not necessarily work for another. rlb is a good friend of mine, but we are about polar opposites in body type and talents. He is whippet thin, tall and runs with a dainty, high knee prance. (Sorry that sounds effeminate - and he is NOT, but he is a very graceful runner). He has loads of speed and needs to watch his mileage so he doesn't get injured.

I'm more like my friend Sean, who describes himself as a "keg with legs". Strong, sturdy, shuffler type. I finally find speed when the miles force my body into being lean and reasonably efficient. I've always run best after a long period of base work. Once I'm aerobically fit and strong, I can do the speed.

So far it's going reasonably well, but for some reason my left leg is hurting behind my knee. I suspect that my hips are a bit out of alignment and that something's pinching. It's weird.

I'll chip in my vote for higher mileage for older runners. Quick story: Back in the day (early 80's) I could always get by on 45-50 mile weeks and extended time off each year. A missed day turned into a few missed days which could turn into a week and so on...I usually ran 1400-1800 miles each year. Ran some sub 32's and almost got under 15 in the 5k. My long runs were usually a Sunday 10 miler. (I'm doing those nearly everyday now!)

Fast forward to 2003...I started running more; a lot more. Got up over 2600 for a few years, The past three have been 3000, 3260 & 3112, my three highest years in my 35 years of running. Race times have dropped significantly. Past few years I've flirted with the 16 minute barrier, going 16:07 last Fall at 50. To be completely honest, I am stunned that my times have continued to drop, across the board, each year since 2005. It has to some to an end one of these days, doesn't it?

So for 2011, I've kind of raised the bar. Try to run the same times or better than I ran last year. Why not?

Dave

Guess I have to daintily jump in. Muddy Girl, I am in stitches from your description of my running form...and here I thought I just ran like an old man. Hope you can figure out what is going on with your leg.

Inspiring to read about all of the good running! I've been keeping up with the blog though I have not had as much time to try to write on it these last few months, but will try to contribute once or twice a month. I thought it was a great idea when I first came across it a year or so back, since many might feel out of place on the original, though the title does start with Masters.

Real interesting that many are running better than expected and some even getting faster. I'm convinced that more miles done smartly is a benefit. Pete Magill is so fine tuned in his training, everything he does is for a specific reason, and he puts in very consistent high mileage. His great times are not by accident. He had been building up with clubs in mind, since at least last spring.

Keith Bateman as well has put a good amount of work over the years and has improved himself in every way he can, to become the runner he is now. His workouts are amazing just by themselves. In my mind, both these men deserve every record they get.

I am convinced that more running can lead to better times. I know this may sound funny to some, but I'm trying to increase mine a little this year, and have had a number of weeks since mid November up in the mid to higher 30s. As far as my diet, I have a big appetite and can eat whatever I want, but try to eat healthy, (no white flower stuff and less processed foods)but I will easily down a 1/2 gallon of ice cream in one setting after any meal, breakfast included, but my wife shames me into making it last thru 2 meals. I can usually gain about 4 or 5 pounds when I take time off, but that is about it.

A Feb track meet I had wanted to run in has not been scheduled for this year, so I'm planning to run the XC race in San Diego with my team. If any one is going to run, please come up and say "hi". I'll be the dainty runner in a Compex singlet!

Rich