Hey Pete Gilmore/BroJos (re: front page quote)

Someone please explain how running form is an extra curricular activity. It is practiced while running. IDGI

Maybe these old timers are jealous that "new age" running form has helped tens of thousands of people run injury free and their "elite" training methods haven't done shit except make people worse.

Great quote and very true.

You are missing something here guys. Pete Gilmore has been running high mileage for years and years. His goals are a bit different from "average" runners.

I can tell you myself, that when I get a good month at about 140-160 miles/week, my muscles and tendons are super strong and I don't get injured. It's when I throw high intensity intervals on moderate mileage, then I tend to get injured.

Jason

No doubt that a return to high mileage has revived US distance running, and, frankly, "old-timers" like the Frank Shorters of the world were essentially minimalists because they ran in the era prior to bulked up shoes with air and gel and all that other bullshit in them. And I have no doubt that efficiencies of form can give one runner an advantage over another, but it's very tricky trying to change one's actual mechanics versus one's awareness of his/her form, arm carriage, etc.

Remember Pat Peterson who had some of the most ridiculous form I've ever seen? He was only the former 2:10-low marathoner and AR holder (faster than Shorter or Rodgers ever ran on a legitimate course). How about Don Janicki? That guy was a human pogo stick, but a very successful marathoner. Frankly, Salazar was not the paragon of excellence in form, but his shuffling style allowed him to excel, as it did for the 160-lb Derek Clayton. Also, a lack of attention to diet only invites the likes of iron deficiency, viral infections, and injury. High mileage produces a lot of ROS stress.

So, yes, high mileage is probably the most important component, but you neglect all of the other aspects at your own peril. You may be the lucky one in five who survive, but the odds are stacked against you. There is a graveyard chock full of runners who had enormous potential but didn't do it right.

High mileage helps form and running economy. Mostly being slow, it's easier on the body than high intensity running. It teaches you how to recover properly cause lets face it-- you can't run 120-200 mpw, week-after-week, if you're hammering it every day (like you might do at a lower mileage).

http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/blog/EntryDisplay.aspx?EntryID=93

http://www.bunnhill.com/bobhodge/Rodgers/traininglogs/br76traininglog.htm

[quote]jaguar1 wrote:

High mileage helps form and running economy. /quote]

Totally agree. 2:08 marathoner from the 1960s in Derek Clayton always claimed that the miles honed his form and developed his shuffling style naturally, not the other way around. Still, I don't doubt that tinkering on awareness of the little things could help.

Lastly, as others have hinted, the biggest mistake runners make is ramping the quality of that mileage before they're ready. That's a recipe for disaster. The body is the best coach. LISTEN to it.

Great quote of the day. I could not agree more. Pete nailed it.

Kevin Hanson wrote:

Great quote of the day. I could not agree more. Pete nailed it.

He sure did.

And mileage alone isn't his point. Ever see the plethora of threads on this site where people talk about how eating "healthy" and "organic" foods make you faster? It's all nonsense and has never been proven to do a damn thing. Run, run and then run more and everything else pretty much takes care of itself.

Sagarin wrote:

Totally agree. 2:08 marathoner from the 1960s in Derek Clayton always claimed that the miles honed his form and developed his shuffling style naturally, not the other way around. Still, I don't doubt that tinkering on awareness of the little things could help.

They tried to tinker with Bill Rodger's arm swing (while looking at VO2 consumption), and his oxygen consumption went up! I believe they said he swung his arm wide to compensate for a broken leg as a kid.

And because I'm on a Bill Rodgers kick right now....

Geb worked 2 years on his form since he felt his track form did not carry over to marathoning. It took him (of course along with his always hard training) from a sub2:06 guy to a sub2:04 guy. People shouldn't have so much tunnel vision with "just do more miles" it's not as easy as it sounds and doesn't apply to everyone.

Full blog for those interested:

http://bayareatrackclub.com/blog/post/show/id/27-Get-Out-the-Door

I think you're missing the point of the quote. I doubt Gilmore is suggesting people completely ignore those faucets of the sport. Obviously they are important pieces to running. However, I think he is getting at the point that many runners have an unhealthy obsession with those pieces and perhaps the main focus should be the actual running part of running.

Higher mileage gives you a few extra hours per week to work on form and think about your diet.

jaguar1, that People magazine story is unbelievable. How did you find that? unreal. I never knew he was a smoke as well.

People Magazine wrote

A day's intake totals some 4,000 calories (vs. a normal 2,500 calories) made up of large amounts of milk, soda and fruit juice, plus such junk foods as chocolate-chip cookies, olives, pickles, Fritos, ketchup, horseradish, tartar sauce, potato chips and various dips involving quarts of mayonnaise....

Following a hard workout he occasionally indulges in a gin and tonic, a sombrero or a piña colada. He avoids tobacco, although he was a pack-a-day smoker until five or six years ago. Ten hours' sleep refreshes him for the next day's run.

Run a lot, sleep a lot. That's 95% of it.

I guess the cynics will point out he was running 209-210 in those days and now people run 204-5 so you have to do everything right. That's the thing I'm not sure of.

But I really think diet for an elite is totally overrated. If you are running that not, you are going to crave cookies. what i would do to go back to those days when i was so tired, i'd crave a cookie..

employee #1 had better us that for QOD tomorrow.

On the Podcast, Bill says he thinks the high altitude is what gets the African guys to 2:04-05. Did he ever train at high altitude??

h4 wrote:

Geb worked 2 years on his form since he felt his track form did not carry over to marathoning. It took him (of course along with his always hard training) from a sub2:06 guy to a sub2:04 guy. People shouldn't have so much tunnel vision with "just do more miles" it's not as easy as it sounds and doesn't apply to everyone.

Geb also had an incredible aerobic foundation, from running high mileage for over 20 years. Geb was merely tweaking some things in his form after already having an outstanding level of fitness. The reality is that most American high schoolers don't have the general level of fitness that the East Africans do. They're running 35 miles per week, and are wondering what all little things they can do to improve. When your aerobic system is that weak, it's not important to be worrying about any of that crap (other than preventing injury). Get out the door and start running more total volume, and watch the gradual improvement from week to week. Americans need more volume and better consistency. That's the secret.

Rojo - not knowing that Bill Rodgers was a smoker was like Donovan McNabb not knowing the game could end in a tie at the end of an overtime period.

I think what Gilmore was trying to say is bottom line is the thing that will make us better is running more. All of the form drills are great to help increase overall fitness and prevent injuries but those drills alone won't produce the times. Too many people try to take the easy way out by replacing their morning run with drills or lifting when they should be focusing on doing what they will do when the gun goes off - running. So yes, do the drills but not in place of running, they should be used as supplemental work.

Also, some people just aren't durable enough to train that hard no matter what they do so they become very limited in terms of overall workload. I know a couple guys who do the drills and strength work every day but still get injured often because they're just not genetically strong athletes and can't handle the day to day punishment on the body.