Thins have turned out well in Eugene with his departure but Martin can flat out coach.
Congrats on his OU squad doing so well.
What happened to the Oregon women? Vin said he liked their chances better than the men.
They finished 12th.
Thins have turned out well in Eugene with his departure but Martin can flat out coach.
Congrats on his OU squad doing so well.
What happened to the Oregon women? Vin said he liked their chances better than the men.
They finished 12th.
mountain manchild wrote:
Thins have turned out well in Eugene with his departure but Martin can flat out coach.
Congrats on his OU squad doing so well.
What happened to the Oregon women? Vin said he liked their chances better than the men.
They finished 12th.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha go ducks hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Things happen. Washington has beaten Oregon the last couple years, but today Oregon beat Washington. Who can explain that?
But they both got beat and took home nothing!
How many national titles did Smith win with Oregon? How many has Vin won?
mountain manchild wrote:
Thins have turned out well in Eugene with his departure but Martin can flat out coach.
Congrats on his OU squad doing so well.
What happened to the Oregon women? Vin said he liked their chances better than the men.
They finished 12th.
Yea, Martin can coach!!! Rock on, Martin! I really hope his teams kick ass in the years to come. I really do miss seeing Martin lopping along when I ran my long runs in the UW Arb coming in the opposite direction with his friendly hello. Such an interesting guy. Way to go Martin!
"He coached two men's national championship cross country teams there (1985, 1988), and his teams won 12 Big Ten titles. Thirty-three of his runners were All-Americans and one was the national champion.
On the track, Smith helped UW to 10 NCAA top 20 finishes and nine Big Ten titles. He coached 49 NCAA All-Americans and 32 individual Big Ten champions.
Smith was head men's and women's cross country coach at Virginia from 1980-83. There he coached the women's cross country team to national championships in 1981 and 1982. His first job in the college ranks came in 1979 when he served as men's cross country coach and assistant men's track and field coach at George Mason."
Irving Babbit wrote:
How many national titles did Smith win with Oregon? How many has Vin won?
mountain manchild wrote:Thins have turned out well in Eugene with his departure but Martin can flat out coach.
Congrats on his OU squad doing so well.
What happened to the Oregon women? Vin said he liked their chances better than the men.
They finished 12th.
The OP acknowledged that Vin has done well at Oregon, no one is contesting that. The point is that he was let go for "not developing the distance runners" and in 5 years he has taken a program that was worse off, with less tradition, and beat Oregon with it. This is an impressive feat.
Anybody who knows what really happened knows he wasn't really let go for his coaching abilities, and the way everything went down makes this a very sweet finish for those of us who were on the wrong side of that clash.
All this is interesting, but I only asked a simple question: How many national championships did each--Vin and Smith--win at Oregon? I wasn't suggesting anything about whether Smith can coach, only what happened at Oregon. And I think what happens at Oregon matters vastly more than what happens at Oklahoma.
Tstwtr wrote:
"He coached two men's national championship cross country teams there (1985, 1988), and his teams won 12 Big Ten titles. Thirty-three of his runners were All-Americans and one was the national champion.
On the track, Smith helped UW to 10 NCAA top 20 finishes and nine Big Ten titles. He coached 49 NCAA All-Americans and 32 individual Big Ten champions.
Smith was head men's and women's cross country coach at Virginia from 1980-83. There he coached the women's cross country team to national championships in 1981 and 1982. His first job in the college ranks came in 1979 when he served as men's cross country coach and assistant men's track and field coach at George Mason."
Smith was the first D1 coach to have men's and women's team and individual champions.
Wetmore is the only one to do so at the same school.
Vin has yet to do it, though he still might.
~duck.alum
Put simply, Smith is an excellent coach but he wasn't the guy for the job at Oregon.
His personality and coaching style fit much better at Oklahoma or a place like Wisconsin.
There's no doubt he can coach, but go look what he did at Oregon while he was there. It wasn't nearly as good as his results at Wisconsin, Virginia, or now Oklahoma.
For whatever reasons, he couldn't work his magic at Oregon. Even ignoring the political junk, the bottom line is he wasn't getting it done at Oregon. That doesn't mean he's not a good coach, it just means it wasn't a good fit.
notpoliticallycorrect wrote:
Put simply, Smith is an excellent coach but he wasn't the guy for the job at Oregon.
His personality and coaching style fit much better at Oklahoma or a place like Wisconsin.
There's no doubt he can coach, but go look what he did at Oregon while he was there. It wasn't nearly as good as his results at Wisconsin, Virginia, or now Oklahoma.
For whatever reasons, he couldn't work his magic at Oregon. Even ignoring the political junk, the bottom line is he wasn't getting it done at Oregon. That doesn't mean he's not a good coach, it just means it wasn't a good fit.
He easily did a much better job than the prior coach(es) at Oregon had done. What he has done at Oklahoma is nothing short of amazing. Hats off to him and his staff and most importantly the lesser known kids on his squad that have done the work and are reaping the rewards.
From 1998 to 2005 was when Smith was at Oregon. Not sure if he was there for 2005 CC, I don't remember.
Here's NCAA finishes:
1998- 5th
1999- 6th
2002- 5th
That's the only times they made it. 3 out 8 (or 7 if left in 2004) with a high of 5th
Let's look at the previous 8 years, from 1990-1997:
1990-5th
1992- 8th
1995- 7th
1996-3rd
1997- 8th
5 out of 8 with a high of 3rd.
Again, not saying Smith is a bad coach, just not a good fit at Oregon. He didn't do as well as the previous regime and by 2005, missing the NCAA 4 times out of the previous 5 attempts isn't a step in the right direction.
He's better off at Oklahoma and doing a heck of a job there. Let's just not make this out to be that Oregon made a huge mistake getting rid of him.
Didn't he also coach T&F - how do those numbers compare?
Eye Witness wrote:
Didn't he also coach T&F - how do those numbers compare?
Since this thread is about CC and he is a distance coach, I thought those were more relavent. It's a little more difficult to judge track success off NCAA finishes, but here they are none the less:
1991-1998:
3rd, 5th, NS, NS, 37th, 30th, 61st, 65th
1999-2005-
65th, 44th, 9th, 35th, 13th, 9th, 9th
Comparable I'd say. Smith had more consistancy in having a few people score. The predecesor had big scores early then faded later in the 90's.
Again I could be slightly off on what track season smith's first was, but I believe it was 99.
notpoliticallycorrect wrote:
1991-1998:
3rd, 5th, NS, NS, 37th, 30th, 61st, 65th
1999-2005-
65th, 44th, 9th, 35th, 13th, 9th, 9th
Comparable I'd say. Smith had more consistancy in having a few people score. The predecesor had big scores early then faded later in the 90's.
Bill Dellinger isn't merely a "predecessor" or the "previous regime", he's one of the legendary coaches of the sport. Have some respect, sonny.
notpoliticallycorrect wrote:
Put simply, Smith is an excellent coach but he wasn't the guy for the job at Oregon.
His personality and coaching style fit much better at Oklahoma or a place like Wisconsin.
There's no doubt he can coach, but go look what he did at Oregon while he was there. It wasn't nearly as good as his results at Wisconsin, Virginia, or now Oklahoma.
For whatever reasons, he couldn't work his magic at Oregon. Even ignoring the political junk, the bottom line is he wasn't getting it done at Oregon. That doesn't mean he's not a good coach, it just means it wasn't a good fit.
This post is right on. While at Oregon, Martin made the tactical decision to not pursue distance runners (though he had a couple of decent kids), but to put his scholarship money elsewhere. At this time, Vin was at Stanford and there weren't a ton of points to be had in the Pac 10 from 800 on up. My memory tells me he won a Pac 10 title in track at Oregon and his team did rather well nationally. But it was not the kind of team the Eugene faithful wanted. Winning with vaulters, javelin throwers and hurdlers wasn't good enough. That, and Martin is a unmitigated prick with a terrible temper who was not interested in playing the political games one must to endear themselves to the folks in Eugene.
Again, in the right situation, the man can coach. Congratulations Martin!
I would hardly call that "revenge."
Also on a side note, Martin is generally a nightmare for the majority of the people he trains, I was glad he got booted from Oregon.
Irving Babbit wrote:
All this is interesting, but I only asked a simple question: How many national championships did each--Vin and Smith--win at Oregon? I wasn't suggesting anything about whether Smith can coach, only what happened at Oregon. And I think what happens at Oregon matters vastly more than what happens at Oklahoma.
Tstwtr wrote:"He coached two men's national championship cross country teams there (1985, 1988), and his teams won 12 Big Ten titles. Thirty-three of his runners were All-Americans and one was the national champion.
On the track, Smith helped UW to 10 NCAA top 20 finishes and nine Big Ten titles. He coached 49 NCAA All-Americans and 32 individual Big Ten champions.
Smith was head men's and women's cross country coach at Virginia from 1980-83. There he coached the women's cross country team to national championships in 1981 and 1982. His first job in the college ranks came in 1979 when he served as men's cross country coach and assistant men's track and field coach at George Mason."
Bullpoop. Who gives a flying eff what happens at the soft liberal college. Martin got the shaft there so cry baby Galen Rupp could get coached by head case Salad Bar simple as that.
Oregon men also qualified in 2001 and 2003, there was no 2005 cross country team. The 2001 squad was 13th, and the 2003 squad was 20 something.
It is also worth noting that the 2000 team that did not qualify was the year that caused the "Oregon Rule" to be put on the books. This team finished 4th at the regional with a top ten national ranking and didn't get in because of Cal Poly who did not have any points, this can't happen any more. It doesn't change the fact that they didn't get the job done, but this was a good team that payed dearly for an off day. The only Oregon team under Smith that just wasn't very good was the 2004 squad. And to be fair the 1998 and/or 99 squad was mostly Dellinger athletes, combined with Steve Fein who transferred to Oregon with Smith, so giving him those finishes is generous, they at least half belong to Dellinger.
Also of note, in 6 years two Smith athletes made the Oregon all time list at 10,000, and two made the list at 5,000. They also piled up tons of AA Awards. In 2005 Indoor Smith was named the western region coach of the year after a 9th place indoor finish at NCAA's, for this he was rewarded by being asked to leave. The team he built went on to win the Pac-10 Track title going away and set a school record for victory margin in the process without a single point from injured super star Tommy Skipper.
The post up to this point has been completely fact based, now I will give some opinions. Based on the evidence above It is very hard to say that Smith underperformed at Oregon. The track team improved drastically in his tenure, and with one exception the cross country team was solid. Also, in my opinion, a good portion of the decline in cross country the last two years (2003 and 2004) was due to sabotage from the forces up north. It is really difficult when you have to recruit against your competition and your alumni. It is true that Smith did little to ease the tensions, and is by no means the politician that Vin is, and for this he is at fault. I however, place much more blame on the saboteurs than the sabotaged.
To say that Smith made the decision to focus less on distance runners is silly, he was forced that direction. If Eugene could have put up with him he would have given them what they have never been, and never will be, Arkansas.