Lawyers - Please read - I need advice on suing the city i live in

Typically, water billing disputes with municipalities are subject to administrative proceedings. You would probably have to first request a hearing or file an appeal with your municipality and then possibly go to an administrative proceeding before a state agency. But it might be different in NY. You need to find out what the procedure is asap because there are frequently short deadlines to file an appeal or get a hearing on a water billing discrepancy. Crack open your municipalities code of ordinances and see if there is anything about water billing rate disputes. And, by all means, go down to the water department and ask them how to dispute your bill. I don't know what the law is in upstate NY, but have handled water billing disputes in other jurisdictions. Chances are NY is similar, but who knows. Crack the books and head down to City Hall.

If you want free legal advice, go see a plaintiff's lawyer who works on a contingency fee. You will have to play up the possiblity of big recovery (100s to 1000s affected) to get a chance to bend their ear. You will also have to look carefully for someone who does commercial litigation and is not just an ambulance chaser.

Obviously, your municipality is jacking with you and is doing things that they should not be doing. You need to move quickly to protect your rights as there may be short fuses for disputing a water bill. Crack the books and get local legal advice. Every municipality and state is different. I have no clue what NY does. The above is general info to get you headed in what will hopefully be the right direction.

mister scholarship winner wrote:

this is the reason why this message board has gone to crap. not even the freaking owner of the RUNNING site posts RUNNING messages on his own board.

Nah...that shows how good it has become. Posters here have shown they can give good advice on a number of topics, so congrats to the Letsrun faithful.

Rojo, that sucks. Expecting to pay about $200 and then finding out it's really $1500...man. At some point the extra amount won't be worth your time and frustration. Not sure what that point is, and there's always the "principle of the thing", but many a person has made themselves crazy over the principle of the thing. Sounds like a good news story for the local news. I'd call them all up today and show them your regular bill and the current bigger bill.

You could look into suing them in small claims court. No lawyers required (and usually no lawyers allowed even).

That's crazy that they never read your meter. Our water dept. bills based on actual meter reads and reads the meter any time a new customer establishes service and then bi-monthly after that.

But is this just a case of them sending you estimated bills for many years and then when they read the actual meter they figured out your usage was actually much higher than they'd been charging you for? If so, it'll be harder to wiggle out of since you'd have to find some sort of regulation that requires them to actually read the meter. Of course I hope this regulation exists.

Doesn't really sound like a lawsuit situation to me. Inform them of your intent to sue if they don't refund you, and go from there. If they will give you a printout of the years they are charging you for and you have your lease starting afterwards, let them know you have that information as well and they probably wouldn't bother defending and will just refund you.

A letter to the state attorney general might work, especially if you can get signatures of other affected residents.

I dont know why you say a class action wouldnt be available. There are many lawyers who focus their practice on suing municipalities, and most of these work on contingencies. Very sure you could find one to listen, especially if you had everything in writing and a letter rationally and non-hysterically stating your case. A class action typically allows for punitives, especially for the bellwether plaintiff (which you would presumably be), so your "charity" might make out fairly well if you were successful.

I somewhat doubt you would be successful in small claims court, and even if you were, your judgment would be useless because clearly the city is playing hardball and wouldnt pay it.

Good luck

Rojo, I am a somewhat specialized attorney in other types of civil matters, who is not licensed in your state. As I type this there has not yet been a reply, so I offer some general principles as a former government attorney, now private practice, to orient you a bit.

One governmental entity can collect for another, particularly at the same level of government, muncipal, county, state, federal, etc. It happens pretty commonly. It is legal in a great many different instances, as it is the public interest for people's debts to the government be paid and the laws are very easily written to afford the government many options to get their money. These kind of provisions were enacted across the country, at least 20 years ago, and are nothing new. Computers make it easier to cross check one list against another, so people see enforcement of this type more often.

With regard to the case, whether individual or class action, here's some general principles. Think of your three branches of government.

The case would be judicial. They will be inclined to look at the law as written, which likely favors the executive branch by explicit written provisions and some precedential history, and uphold their claim against you.

The executive branch, which is getting the money and already has given you the runaround, is not a likely place for help.

Your best bet is the legislative branch. Someone has been elected to represent your geographic area in a legislative body on the municipal, county, state and federal levels. Each has connections with officials in the city. Most like to be the champions of the people in such instances. I would try there. No attorney needed. One of the legislative officials will likely see self interest in this and help you.

On a practical level, even noting that you said you used general numbers, a $200 monthly water bill sounds high and I would be suspicious of a claim that you were being undercharged when that was your regular bill. If it's a quarterly, bill then $200 would be closer to expected, but still not abnormally low.

Good luck.

Not a lawyer myself but I'd say you have a good case as my landlord recently won a very similar one against my city. Simialr to your case water meters hadn't been checked in 10 plus years and when they finally were the property owners were hit with an extra bill for over $75,000 more than usual (7 story building with about 100 1 and 2 bedroom units). The landlord pays the utility bills and the costs are included in our flat rate monthly rent. They were told to pay or loose their property and us remnants were told if they didn't pay we could pay ourselves or be evicted. The landlord went to court and got the additional charges recovered, granted this was for a larger amount and the landlord is a group that manages multiple properties so they may have a lawyer on retainer or some such. Good luck, don't take crap like that lying down.

Rojo - You might try to find an attorney who will take this as a class action. If it affected a sufficient number of people, it might be worth their time (they'll get ~30% of any payout or settlement.)

Don't do anything pro se. Just like 99% of things in life, you get what you pay for. hire a real attorney.

Well, now that I posted, there's a lot ahead of me. The administrative hearing, or appeals others mentioned above, are examples of the executive branch avenues for recovery. I am less optimistic about them than the legislative pressure route, for the reasons I stated above.

Whether we like it or not, things get done legislatively, working with the executive branch, through trades. Get a legislator who sees a win in this and then can lean on someone in the city to relent on this in trade for something unrelated to you and your fellow water bill victims, like support for some road construction on the other side of the city. They will not mention it to you, but someone will see this a chip to trade if they can also get voter support as the person who made the city back down for the good of the people. Legislators love to get something in return for anything they do, so it they were inclined to support the road construction, but had not yet done so, for example, they can use it as leverage on the grotesque ten year delayed surprise water bills.

I work for a regulated electric utility so our rules may be different than your water dept rules.

But, first ask for a copy of their rules and regulations. There should be a section covering billing and billing adjustments. Also read up on estimated bills. Since you have only lived there 5 years you should request first for 5 years worth of estimated billing amount. You are not responsible for any under billings that the previous customer caused. Next see if there is wording covering the time frame you have to repay the under billed amount. For our utility, if we go back and adjust 2 years worth of bills, then we allow the customer to repay us 1/24th per month, 2 years worth of extra payments. Also if this is a city run utility, contact your local city councilman and have them get into the middle of this situation.

Another question to ask is how did they come up with the underbilled gallons of water for the $1200 adjustment. If they say that is what an everage customer uses, you argue you are not average and consume less water so your billing adjustment should be less.

Also you could contact the states Attorney general's office and file complaint about your treatment.

Good luck, it is not water under te bridge.

The only way you are going to get good legal advice is consulting an attorney who is licensed in NY and knows municipal law (unless one happens to frequent this board).

That being said, a good way to deal with recalcitrant local governments that I have not seen mentioned yet is to contact the media. Your local news station probably has some sort of local trouble shooter that does expose pieces about local injustices and they usually take calls. In my area it is called "The Troubleshooter" with the local ABC affiliate.

Just to give you an idea, when I worked at the local legal aid society one summer calling, "The Troubleshooter" was in our manual of procedures. I never did it at legal aid, but in my neighborhood, my father and I did once. The town came in and tore down a local playground. We called the town and said we wanted it put back up. They said no. We called "The Troubleshooter," who called the town and said they would do a news piece about all the sad children. The town spent just south of $50,000 to put the playground back. If you don't want to seek legal advice (and even if you do) this could be an effective option. The fact that there are multiple aggrieved parties and that it is the government should make it a particularly attractive story for an expose piece.

Have you gone to Cornell Law School on this? Seriously, this is exactly what the pro bono of schools do. We did years ago when I was at IU law. Nothing better than a 2nd year working for a potential line on a resume to fight a municipality.

For that kind of money, put in a well and a septic tank. No more water bills!

What the F*** are you doing to run up a $200 water bill every month? Do you fill up a large in-ground pool each and ever week?

Has Rojo's post implicated attorney-client privilege?

If it's yellow let it mellow,

If it's brown, flush it down.

Sir, you should not let the water run when you brush your teeth and when you shave. Turn off the shower when soaping up and turn it back on to rinse. Keep your hair cut short so you don't use as much water washing and rinsing.

I forgot to mention that the reason the proceedings before the municipality and state agency may be important is because in many states you are required to exhaust your administrative remedies before going to court. If you show up to court with out going the administrative route, you get dismissed. Then, it may be too late to go the administrative route. So, that is why you need to find out what you need to do asap.

The old saying is something like this: You can't fight city hall. You would spend more in legal fees than you would win. Pay your bill through clenched teeth.

I can't help you, but one thing strikes me as ironic about suing the city. Since public offices are paid for by public taxes, the burden of the city paying any court costs or legal fees will be passed on to the people paying taxes. Punitive damages will punish the taxpayers. The ones who were negligent will never feel the pain. You might be able to cover your costs, but they will then just be redistributed, as you found out, through increased property or school taxes (or something else).

It would probably be more effective if you can get some key people fired, or if they are in elected positions, to campaign against them, or if their boss is elected, run for that position. Just some alternate ideas.