3x10k, 6x5k, 10x3k sessions for marathon.

I like sets like 3x5k and 2x10k at marathon pace...30k of work at MP in training seems like a lot, but I'm not exactly competing with Japan's best, so there you go...

Materoff and Nobby where are you?

Mayeroff

The Japanese are well known to do some really stupid things that only shorten their career through injured or burn out.

They do 40k's, sometimes ON A TRACK, followed immediately by core strengthening work, and then repeat 3k's the NEXT DAY. Believe me, I've seen it.

I've heard about them doing 40k's in 2:05 or 2:06, and also 60x200 after a morning jog. I once watched Mizuki Noguchi do 50x400 in St. Moritz (74 sec. average with 200 jog).

You MIGHT get into great shape doing this type of stupid stuff, but the probability of injury and/or complete and utter exhaustion is very high.

I once did 40km in Bangkok in 2:08, and it left me incredibly tired. that was about 6 weeks before the Olympic Trials in 2004, and I deeply regret doing that workout. If I had done it about 5:20 pace, it would have been ideal, but 5:10's was doable but way too fast, especially for the conditions.

Jason

This is a compilation of most of Renato's stuff on Let's Run:

http://www.futas.net/hungary/running/Renato-Canova-running.doc

The stuff you are looking for is on pages 30-37 and page 70.

Back in my day there were far fewer things available on training. One of the things I concocted for myself was to use a rolling 3k loop for fast pace work. I would run over and back (3-4 miles each way) modest;y, especially back. I would usually do 3 repeats in about 10 minutes, with 10 minutes rest (jogging/walking the entire time), which was a pace about what I was capable of doing for 10km. Once I did 5 x 3k with 5 minutes rest at about 15km race pace. The 3 x times variant I ran always within 3-4 seconds of the same time, while the 5 x was more variable and faster for the last two (probably progressively faster).

I do not know how well these worked but I did run faster for the marathon than would be expected from my 10km time. I never did do a 10 x 3km workout, but I did do 30km hard pace runs (plus warmup and warmdown) once or twice a marathon season that was slightly faster (5-10 seconds/mile) than goal pace when I was in pretty good shape, but not within the last 3 or 4 weeks before the marathon.

These are classic Aerobic Threshold Repeats (sometimes called Marathon Pace repeats or Ventilation Threshold repeats).

The length you can handle depends somewhat on the weekly mileage you do. If you are a marathoner doing 120 miles or more a week than up to 30k worth of AT Repeats is certainly an option on a fairly regular basis (every 2-3 weeks) in your marathon specifc phase.

By breaking the work up into repeats we can handle more running at this pace than we can by doing them in one continuous run (similar concept to Daniels cruise intervals vs LT tempo run).

Another popular use of this with Canova runners and followers would be to run 20-22k in the morning with the first 10k at an easy pace and the last 10-12k at AT pace (MP), and then repeat that workout again in the late afternoon.

Other popular marathon specific workouts in this crowd include the long steady state run. Canova recently talked about doing that every other week during a marathon build up, starting with 30k @ 95% MP, then 2 weeks later increasing it to 32k @ 95% MP, etc up to 36k 2-3 weeks before the goal race.

All of these get the body use to running at or near marathon race pace for extended periods of time. It also calluses the mind to such efforts.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

- MPR

One of the points Canova makes about this kind of training, if I understand him correctly, is that the recovery between the intervals is very important. He says that running the recovery at a pretty quick pace teaches the body to use more fatty acids for fuel at marathon pace so you don't run out of glycogen during the race.

An example he gives is Baldini doing 4 x 5000 in 15 minutes with 1000 recovery in 3:30 between each 5000 early in the cycle. This progresses to 4 x 5000 in 15 minutes with 1000 "recovery" in 3:10 later in the cycle. I put "recovery" in quotes because 3:10/1000 is only a little slower than 3:00/1000, which is the pace of the 5000 repeats.

I thought we were talking about insane Japanese workouts on this thread.

The Renato stuff is well-known and well documented. Top runners like Baldini and other Italian-influenced elite runners can handle 4x5km in 15:00 or faster without difficulty.

I tried something similar in Sapporo last month, 4x3000 on a hilly loop in a park and it went well.

I thought we were talking about insane Japanese workouts on this thread.

The Renato stuff is well-known and well documented. Top runners like Baldini and other Italian-influenced elite runners can handle 4x5km in 15:00 or faster without difficulty.

I tried something similar in Sapporo last month, 4x3000 on a hilly loop in a park and it went well.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

One of the points Canova makes about this kind of training, if I understand him correctly, is that the recovery between the intervals is very important. He says that running the recovery at a pretty quick pace teaches the body to use more fatty acids for fuel at marathon pace so you don't run out of glycogen during the race.

Sound good in theory, but really the body has no choice bu to increase fat metabolism when anyone does a lot of Marathon pace running.

What is most important about this type of work is holding a decent pace which means a similar stride rate to shorter distance races, and that is why the interval format is a good idea.

Ladies and gentlemen,

Jason is alive,

he is alive,

ALIVE I say.

He once was (thought) dead,

but now he is (obviously) ALIVE!

From page 11 of the thread "Some more information about Kenyan athletes" Renato Canova wrote:

About the first question, the most important goal in Marathon is to reduce the difference between the 2 thresholds (AT of about 2 mmol, and AnT of about 4 mmol), that, when you are really prepared in your SPECIFIC POWER MARATHON ENDURANCE are very close (under 5% in the best runners). What does it mean 5% ?

You have a marathon runner, 4 months before his race. You test your runner (that has a PB of 63:20 in HM = 3:00 / km)

and find that, at 3:00 pace (after 20/25 min), he has a level of lactate of about 4 mmol. You can really suppose that this athlete, well prepared, can run a full marathon in 2:13 (that is 3:09 pace). If you think that the relation between 63:20 and 2:13:00 is not correct, is only because you type of training marathon is not correct. Of sure, every athlete talented for long run, able running a HM at 3:00 / km pace, must be able running in 2:13:00 with a correct training (sometime, TRAINING HARD IS NOT TRAINING WELL...).

Anyway, if 3:00 pace is 100% (18.0 every 100m), 3:09 is 95% of the same speed.

But, if you test your runner 4 months before the race, you find that running at 3:09 can provoke a lactate level of about 3 / 3.3, so higher than what is possible to accept for running full marathon. You must remember that, when you produce more lactate, is because your consumption of glycogen is growing, and this fact means that your tank of glycogen cannot last more than 1:30:00.

If you test the level of 2 mmol (for example, using the FARAGGIANA - GIGLIOTTI test, consisting in 6 x 2000m even pace, with very short recovery (may be 40 sec, only the time for taking blood from the ear), increasing speed every time (for example, in the above case : 6:50 / 6:40 / 6:30 / 6:20 / 6:10 / 6:00, more a last 1200m free faster possible), you can find (it's an example) values of 1.8 mmol - 2.0 - 2.4 - 2.8 - 3.4 - 4.0. So, you can suppose that, at that time, the speed for producing 2 mmol (good for running full marathon) can be about 3:20 (a difference of 11% from HM speed), and this athlete, also with long run, cannot run a marathon under 2:20.

One of the systems for reducing the difference of speed from 2 to 4 mmol (conventional values) is to work very much using the speed of recovery, of course running fast.

What example we can do for building a correct consumption of fuel ? For instance, using 1000m at alternated speed :

4 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You start alternating a fast km (at the speed of 4 mmol, may be 3:05 at that moment) to a slower km of recovery (at a speed under 2 mmol, may be 3:40)

During the first period, if you use this type of training 3 times, every time you KEEP CONSTANT RECOVERY SPEED, and try to improve TIME OF TEST, for improving your ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD (Resistance is the BASE for increasing POWER).

At the end of the period, you are able running in 3:00/3:40 (average 3:20)

3 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You KEEP CONSTANT THE SPEED OF TESTS, and try to improve SPEED OF RECOVERY. You are able to improve your AEROBIC THRESHOLD, keeping at the same level the AnT (Power is the BASE for increasing SPECIFIC ENDURANCE).

At the end of the period, you are able running in 3:00/3:30

(average 3:15)

2 MONTHS BEFORE MARATHON :

You work on speed of tests (till 2:58) during the first 2 sessions, and on speed of recovery (3:26) during the third session. So, at the end, you run in 2:58/3:26 (av. 3:12)

LAST MONTH :

You can lose little power, as when you are really ready for full Marathon, you cannot run your PB in Half. If this happens, there's some mistake in your training. Last period has the focus of INCREASING SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE, bringing the speed of 2 mmol (marathon) very close to the speed of HM. So, you can run a little slower your tests (3:00), working for improving speed of recovery (at the end, 3:18). In this case, your average is 3:09, and you can identify it in your Marathon Pace, using of course even pace.

Of course, we don't use only this work, but use also more long run, specific marathon endurance workouts (for ex., 4 x 5000m at 102% of your MP, recovering 1 km in 3:30), always having inside a SPECIFIC ELEMENT : Marathon Speed.

The most important thing, in this project, is to control a correct recovery. So, a big modulation becomes the most important way of training. When you go to specificity, YOU MUST BE FRESH IN MUSCLES AND IN BRAIN FOR RUNNING AT Mar. Pace. So, recovery is very important. You not only can, but MUST recover running big volume at low intensity. MORE YOU RUN SLOWLY IN YOUR RECOVERIES DURING SPECIFIC PERIOD, MORE YOU CAN RUN FAST FOR LONG TIME DURING YOUR SPECIFIC WORKOUTS. Don't forget that the Specificity, in Mararathon, is a Specificity of Extension.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=220022&page=10#ixzz0zkD6KBWE

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wellnow:

Are you saying this is all BS and that if you jog or walk the recovery, the effect on fat metabolism is the same since the volume at marathon pace is the same?

Calm down fats. I'm saying that you're going to be training fat metabolism pretty much the same whatever the recovery, because your body does that naturally. What is harder to do is get the pace judgement right, regardless of whether you jog at x pace, walk, or stand still.

It's easy to do these workouts too hard becasue the adrealin builds and builds. That's why Renato needs to be able (in his own words) to control the situation to make sure the runners he coaches get the pace judgement right.

However, although I do agree with most of what Renato says, sometimes I think he overthinks things. And sometimes he is wrong, such as when he said a few weeks ago that fast twitch fibers don't have mitochondria. The truth is that most FT fibers have a high oxidative capacity and even the fastet of the FT fibers have some mitochondria in distance runners.

Of course it went well! How could it not with your energy drink?

www.666energy.com wrote:

I tried something similar in Sapporo last month, 4x3000 on a hilly loop in a park and it went well.

4x3k (or even 4x5k) is much easier than than 10x3 or 6x5. Baldini doing 4x1500 at 15:00 pace is doing 12 miles at marathon pace. Hard but doable. Doing 18 miles at MP is gettting to be a workout that approaches race difficulty (factoring in your didn\'t taper). I am sure if you can do it and not break down that it helps. But that is true of just about any hard training I can write up.

www.666energy.com wrote:

I thought we were talking about insane Japanese workouts on this thread.

The Renato stuff is well-known and well documented. Top runners like Baldini and other Italian-influenced elite runners can handle 4x5km in 15:00 or faster without difficulty.

I tried something similar in Sapporo last month, 4x3000 on a hilly loop in a park and it went well.