does anyone know is snell ran doubles at all, and if so - how often?
thanks
does anyone know is snell ran doubles at all, and if so - how often?
thanks
I can't tell for sure, but I assume doubles based on his mileage.
From
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/news/pdfs/Snellcourirenglish.pdfPeter Snell was a protégé of the late Arthur Lydiard and trained based on what is fondly known as the
“Lydiardism”. When you look at the background of training for middle distance events, back in those
days in the late 1950s and early 1960s, the mainstream training method was intervals.
Arthur Lydiard defied all this and prescribed Snell, as an 800m runner, to run 100 miles a week with
weekly 22-miler over a gruelingly hilly course. Snell ran this famous 22-mile circuit called “Waiatarua”
with a distance man, Murray Halberg, and a marathon runner, Barry Magee.
Two years after he joined the Lydiard school, as a complete under-dog, surprisingly Snell advanced to the
final. In the final of 800m race, he ran up against then the world record holder, Roger Moens of Belgium,
and nipped him by an inch at the tape. The key to his success was developing stamina.
Snell had the slowest 200m speed among all the finalists in the final of 800m in both 1960 Rome and 1964 Tokyo Olympic Games. Nevertheless, he passed Moens in the final 20m in the final of Rome Games.
At Tokyo, his running style was called “Ninja-style” by a Japanese news reporter—Snell would hide quietly in the back of the pack, almost invisible and cuddle in black uniform, until 200m to go. Then once he sprinted past everybody, his kick was so deadly. The final of Tokyo 1500m was simply a display of his power—known by many expert, along with Herb Eliot’s solo win in 1500m in Rome, the “text book strategy” for middle distance events.
His Devastating Final Sprint was Made Possible by Building Superb Stamina:
The key to Lydiard’s stamina building training is to achieve “tireless state” so that the athlete can run
his/her fastest at the end of the race where it counts. Moreover, in the championships setting such as
Olympic Games with 3~4 rounds of races, it was possible for “tireless” Snell to run at his fastest in the
final 200m of his races while his competitors were too tired to use their superior speed. Interestingly,
when I visited coach Yoshio Koide (coach of Olympic marathon champion, Naoko Takahashi) at his
Snell winning 1500m at Tokyo in 1964
Boulder house, he said, “Lydiard had his runners run 100 miles a week so his runners can run the last
200m as fast as they can in their track races. I have my runners run 200 miles a week so they can run the
last 5km as fast as they can in the marathon races.” Conceptually, it’s all the same.
I have read a couple books on this matter. Lydiard would aim to have his runners run 100 mpw in singles, but encouraged them to get out in the morning on do a 20 minute shake-out run to flush the legs. Thats why when Lydiard claims his runner ran 100 mpw it may of been much higher because of the morning runs. I would assume Snell did close to 100 mpw in single and an additional 20-40 including doubles.
Generally he ran doubles.
The Biggest Boss wrote:
I have read a couple books on this matter.
Which books and which pages?
Lydiard had his dudes run single runs, but would have his runners do "supplementary runs" or "suppleing" I think he called it. It would be a few mile shake outs basically jogging. So I guess technically they were running doubles, regardless of what their mpw included, or didn't include.
I tried this variation of training and I felt like the supple runs were really helping me. I felt more in control during my main run, felt like I could run at any speed I wanted, and it increased my metabolism.
Lydiard's guys certainly did doubles (easy 20-30 shakeout jogs in the morning or evenings), but only the primary run of the day counted toward their weekly milage. Same with Coe and many of the Kenyan guys nowadays.
What is the logic behind counting some miles and not others?
If they are not worthy of counting, are they "junk" miles? If they are junk miles, why do them?
Asker of questions wrote:
What is the logic behind counting some miles and not others?
If they are not worthy of counting, are they "junk" miles? If they are junk miles, why do them?
mostly to speed up the recovery, also to loosen you up for the main workout.
I understand the logic of running doubles / shake out runs. I was asking about the logic behind counting some miles and not others.
If you are counting miles in order to keep track of the volume of work done, why wouldn't you count all of your miles? Isn't a mile run as a warm up = a shakeout mile = a mile on and easy run = mile run on a cool down?
jon boy wrote:
does anyone know is snell ran doubles at all, and if so - how often?
thanks
I believe he claims that he did in his autobiography "No Bugles, No Drums" -- an excellent read, by the way.
Also see
http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=18124.
Is someone seriously trying to train like peter snell...(snells training wasn't exactly great for an 800 runner). Ok it was good but not perfect...
theone wrote:
Is someone seriously trying to train like peter snell...(snells training wasn't exactly great for an 800 runner). Ok it was good but not perfect...
Let's see -- two olympic gold medals and a world record in the 800 -- perhaps you could suggest some improvements? Perhaps he should have trained more like Steve Ovett.
The Biggest Boss wrote:
encouraged them to get out in the morning on do a 20 minute shake-out run to flush the legs.
What does "flush the legs" mean? Whats the real effect and purpose of this, other than voodoo phrases likes this?
Morning exercise may stimulate the release of various hormones, like HGH, that will make you feel better on the second session and may also speed up recovery.
also another session is another session; even if you're running slowly there will be a training benefit.
Peter's 100-mile weeks were achieved mostly singles. Well, I'll take it back. He did doubles but it's not that he was running 150 miles with morning jog included. 100 was more or less his max--he even at one point said he would include running up the end of the street to get milk and still get 100.
He often did 30-minutes in the morning and an hour in the evening to lead up to 100-miles-a-week which, I've found out myself, is one of the best ways to get in shape. He tried to do doubles whenever--he used to jog to work, etc., but, running the daily quota with other guys, it would be difficult to not to go over 100 if he ran doubles everyday.
As a matter of fact, running doubles is not that important in terms of piling up miles during the conditioning. I believe in doubles and I'm totally with Malmo in this respect. But if doing doubles interfer other important aspect of conditioning, doing doubles purely for the sake of adding more miles is a mistake. But doing morning jog becomes even more important when you start doing faster workouts and racing. In Snell's case, he would jog 45~60-minutes every morning one he starts doing track training and racing. That becomes more critical.
I watch Snell memorabilia on youtube. He runs while he goes to his job early on the morning and back home on the evening. He doesn’t seem to run at Lydiard best aerobic pace but easy jog.
NobbyH wrote:
He often did 30-minutes in the morning and an hour in the evening to lead up to 100-miles-a-week which, I've found out myself, is one of the best ways to get in shape.
30am and 60pm 100miles a week and what is your 800m Pb ? Other pbs are what ?
I personally run 75-80 miles a week and my 800 pr is 1:57. its not so much about how much you're running, it's more about what kind of training you're doing. tailoring your training is going to be vastly different from one type of race to the next. for example, 800m training and mile training are hybrids of speed and endurance. Snell often did long runs to boost his endurance (lactic threshold) and interval training to boost his speed (muscle strength, and VO2 max). also in my opinion, the shorter the race, the more natural talent is involved. You cant just put in all the hard work and expect to be the best when dealing with 800m haha. thats why i run the 5k