400 miles in 4 weeks, my legs are...numb...

Why did you stop the doubles? Why haven't you had rest/recovery days?

I was running doubles with my girlfriend. I'd do 12 or 16 in the morning, and then 4 in the evening with her as a "shake-out" run. But she has left town for the month, and I've just been doing singles...I don't know why.

I might do a 25K race next weekend. It's one of my favorite distances, and I can use it as a gauge of my fitness. I was thinking of taking it easy for about 3 days prior to the race, to give my legs some recovery time. Until now, I've just been in "machine" mode, grinding out miles, with no recovery. I know that if I rest for a couple of days my legs will be screaming to run, so that will be interesting...

I have never run so consistently. So I am interested to see what happens. When I run 10 miles (like I did today), it feels like a day off, so I don't know...

I should also say that I mainly want to get to the point where I can train with some of the faster local runners (the lazy post-collegians, the age group studs and small town marathon winners.) I was in that kind of shape last year, and I probably enjoy that more than anything, though I do like to race every now and then.

You should definately return to the doubles, for multiple different reasons. I would also suggest that every week contain at least one active recovery day such as AM 5 PM 5.

Lets Runner wrote:

You should definately return to the doubles, for multiple different reasons. I would also suggest that every week contain at least one active recovery day such as AM 5 PM 5.

OK, that is very helpful. Thanks, I'm new to this...

bumtard wrote:

Lets Runner wrote:

You should definately return to the doubles, for multiple different reasons. I would also suggest that every week contain at least one active recovery day such as AM 5 PM 5.

OK, that is very helpful. Thanks, I'm new to this...

No, if you run the same mileage, doing it in doubles will not aid more than running it in singles. I repeat, IF YOU RUN THE SAME MILEAGE. There´s too much fuss about doubles vs. singles.

The total mileage and quality of the total mileage is what matters.

But remember, if you never get the recovery, you will be injured or overtrained and you just will not get the benefits from the hard work.

I averaged more than 100 miles per week for a 6 week period, hitting a peak week of 122. Like you, many of these runs were slow. Didn't help me to run a fast marathon though. Disappointed, I reduced my mileage to 70-80 miles per week. These miles were run at a far faster pace. Plenty of intervals, tempo runs, fartlek,... The result? I cut 24 minutes off my marathon time. So, unless you're training for an ultra, don't sacrifice speed for volume.

DreamWeaverx wrote:

I averaged more than 100 miles per week for a 6 week period, hitting a peak week of 122. Like you, many of these runs were slow. Didn't help me to run a fast marathon though. Disappointed, I reduced my mileage to 70-80 miles per week. These miles were run at a far faster pace. Plenty of intervals, tempo runs, fartlek,... The result? I cut 24 minutes off my marathon time. So, unless you're training for an ultra, don't sacrifice speed for volume.

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This answer is not a 100% correct as mine will not be; or any answer for that purpose. However, I have done the same as the runner above (my high point was 144 miles) the milage helped me in both shorter and longer events, it also has helped me in the long run of things. Milage isn't for everyone but you will see how your body respond and have to judge what is enough from that. Its a balancing act. I do agrees with one of the other comments, a bunch of slow miles won't do much; you will have to run SLOW for recovery from time to time but MAYBE not as much as you stated that you were currently doing. Just remember don't over do it and everyone is different one way to see judge while your tired is to think back and think if every time in your running career that you have increased mileage have you done better? If so that may be an sign that yes you can handle a reasonable increase. A second way to judge is to stay on current path and jump in a small 5k without backing off and see how your legs hold up.

Oh and the 144 was a mistake I should have listened to my coach and not went over 125. BE SMART. This is an incomplete answer but it is an answer.

Happy Runnings

I've just completed an 11 week easy base. Average of 132mpw; max 185M (last week). I'm planning on taking another 17 weeks to slowly get used to faster paces - building up from low aerobic effort (like you mostly sub MP) to higher aerobic efforts (MP, HM, 10M, 10K pace in shorter reps) with plenty of hill reps thrown in. No point in rushing. Like you I am late 30s and not done the fast stuff for a while.

My input would simply to be to listen to the legs more than anything else. If the goal if to just get the miles in and get you strong and ready for the faster stuff (in my case there was, as always, some excess poundage to shed too), then don't try and add too much to the mix. If the legs want to go slower, then go slower - no matter what the schedule / HRM / pride tells you. Listen to the legs.

Plodding out high mileage can make you strong and very fit at low intensities. I think the injury and burn out risk is lower than people think, just don't try and put too much in the mix (faster running, strides, strength work, etc.)

But remember that this must be a phase and not the main goal. It is for a short season only. Take your time to build up the pace slowly afterwards - no rushing for some race. Listen to the legs!

After 11 weeks of dead, numb leg plodding I am really looking forward to focusing on three key workouts a week - turning up for each fresh legged and well fuelled.

Also, I took an easier week (100mpw for me) every 4th week - wouldn't have survived without it. And my runs were typically split into 15m am and 7m pm. I only got two 20+M runs in the entire time.

Hope some of that helps. if you want more, feel free to message me.

Wow, pantman, that's some serious training you're doing.

I think the idea behind doing multiple 100-mile weeks was to set an *upper* limit on the amount of miles that I would be putting in...in other words, to try to adjust to doing high mileage slowly, and then work on the intensity (folding in hills/fartlek/tempo) as I went along, culminating in real interval training in August and September. In other words, I could be doing a few more miles, but I want 100 mpw to feel easy.

Like you, I'm also looking forward to turning to some faster stuff. Looking forward to the track, believe it or not!

Mentally, I think it is hard for me to think about rest and recovery when I am so driven to get the miles in, and especially given how easy these miles have seemed, and my almost total lack of soreness/pain. I guess I feel like I don't "deserve" rest unless I'm sore...whatever.

There is a weight loss benefit for me, certainly. I should lose another 5 pounds to be at a proper race weight (for me, that's 5'11" and 159 pounds or so.) I'm trying to get there as slowly as I can though, just a pound a week...

Another thing is to recover from high mileage takes high protein - when I was having around 100g per day I was struggling, but at 200g/day it was much easier.

recovery and rest are vital for improvements at this mileage. Your body needs it in order to improve and give better performances.

Try ice baths after sessions and massage once a week.

Beware of fatigue, burnout and injury- take care!

How much longer do you plan on doing the 100M weeks for, bumtard?

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is watching your iron intake. Running high mileage, you WILL be destroying red blood cells, so you've got to watch out for anemia. Some people say to take supplements, but I think you're fine just eating red meat 3 times a week and consciously eating other iron sources (nuts, oats, etc.).

How come you guys aren't doing any tempo runs? Those are a staple of my base phase

I once had a friend do 400 miles in 2 weeks and he said he still felt 'fresh as a daisy'. I am not sure what you are doing wrong. Are you drinking enough milk? He swore by 8-10 full glasses of milk per meal, and I mean FULL glasses.

How long wrote:

How much longer do you plan on doing the 100M weeks for, bumtard?

I may not get up to 100 this week, I don't know. I guess I'd like to, but damn it's hot. The heat index was 107 today, so that sucked. Plus I did a couple of tough 14 mile trail runs Tuesday and Wednesday, just 1200 feet of ascent, but I'm not used to the hills yet. So I don't know.

Still kind of shocked I'm not sore...some days I feel a bit blah is all...

Last time I did mileage close to this (360 miles/month) I was on a vegan diet, but I still got some protein in there somehow (peanut butter, falafel, beans, hummus) and I took a multi-vitamin in addition to lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Now I'm eating meat every day, and drinking milk. I think I feel a bit less depleted this way, but "lighter" as a vegan.

I'd call the 20-25% of my miles I do at marathon pace some kind of "tempo" run, but you're right, I'd like to do more at 10K/5K pace. Then again, I'm really getting my heart rate up on some of my hill runs. I really enjoying running a bit faster with other people, and I tend to run slowly when I'm by myself. I'm going to do a 25K next weekend, so that will be good.

Ticktock wrote:

How come you guys aren't doing any tempo runs? Those are a staple of my base phase

Can't speak for anyone else, but I consider these last 11 weeks to be a "base for base training", so to speak.

I'm now going into more of what you would call base training phasing in MP work and, later, tempo runs. The main reasons for the phase-in are that:

(1) I haven't run fast for so many years I have to come at the speed very slowly. MP effort is hard on the legs still and regular tempos would just injure me

(2) when I do come to do "proper" base training now I can do it at a higher mileage and recover better than I would have done without those previous 11 weeks.

Pantman wrote:

The main reasons for the phase-in are that:

(1) I haven't run fast for so many years I have to come at the speed very slowly. MP effort is hard on the legs still and regular tempos would just injure me

This is a common complaint from people who only do steady running. They think fast running will injure them. WRONG - it's the lack of training for speed, and the lack of strength you used to have, that may injure you when you try to run fast.

I would strongly suggest you reserve 10% of your efforts for work at the other end of the spectrum....

1. in early base phase, get in the gym once or twice a week and develop the leg muscles. Squats, Cleans, RDLs, plus general strength and 'off-plane' things. Weights take a bit of speed out of you, but if you're doing slow mileage it's fine. When plodding a lot of miles I found that weights reinvigorated me and woke up my legs nicely - as good as a massage.

2. Do a few drills each week or some short fast strides up hills, starting right now. Tiny volumes but add a little each week. Just a few 50m strides with walk back will do it. This lets you start adapting to faster running. (If you measured 100m and timed yourself running 'comfortably fast' you'd probably come down from 20sec to 16sec over a couple of months, even while running miles and having tired legs).

3. When in the later base phase, mix in some shorter stuff at mile-like paces as well as longer intervals. Kenyan diagonals, short hills (20 sec up, jog back), stride-straights-jog-bends. Start at 10, add 5 each time you do the session, build up to 30 reps or so. These work you aerobically like a tempo - high heart rate for 30-40min - but let you learn to run relaxed at a higher pace. And again they are invigorating and make you feel less 'dead on your legs'.

Elements like this have helped me a lot coming back after 15 years off; I can now run 200 in under 27, which paid off all the way up the scale and makes 5 mile races feel way more easier...