Claytons 2:08

A lot of people didn't believe the course was the correct length. That and the fact Derek was beaten in several championship races further added to the doubt.

Dave Costill had Derek Run at that pace for 10 klicks on a treadmill with a breathing apparatus. Blood was taken and I believe that it registered 1.8mm which indicated to Costill that Derek definitely had the physiology capable of the 2:08;33 marathon.

"I don't run to be regarded as anything by anybody. I don't care whether people think I'm the greatest runner ever or the greatest bum ever. I don't run for other people; I don't run for my country. I'm not very nationalistic. Derek Clayton comes first in my book." - Derek Clayton

He ran 2:09.36 in Fukuoka

I once read that when he went on his log runs that he would deliberately get lost to make it further!

Don't know about the getting lost thing but it sure sounds like something he'd do.

Derek used to do his long run normally on saturday. Typically it would be marathon distance and he would run it in 2.20- 2.25. He would often rock up at Ferny Creek on sunday and do a very hilly 17-22 miles with the boys(Clarke etc)as a recovery run.

The guys from those days reckon training with Derek was as hard as racing. Clarke has no doubt Derek could run those times. Remember Clarke was smashing WR by a big margin too.

Derek overtrained for the big events. His best running always came after a 10 week block of 160 mile weeks. He ran 180-200 mile weeks for a number of championship events and lined up flat and injured each time.

What shoes was clayton wearing?

Hooves wrote:

What shoes was clayton wearing?

Vibram Five-Fingers for all of his training.

Ron Clarke told me this about Clayton...

They would usually meet up once a week, often on Thursdays. Clarke said it was one of his hardest days of the training week, and Clayton called it one of his easiest days. It was often a 17-miler over a hilly route, and Clarke said it was close to race intensity...

Can you imagine --- way back then, Clarke and Clayton going at it over 17 miles on the hills, in a training run?

Wow !!!

I have no idea of the length of the course when Clayton ran his 2:08, but Clarke was clear that this guy trained like a maniac, and was capable of almost "super-human" performances... He also said that Clayton didn't really like running - he was just good at it, so that's what he did....Often he ran fast mileage in training, just to get the run over with... Something around 150 +/- miles a week, with a lot of moderate to fast running in there...

Clayton wore the Tiger Marathon shoes that you see on Fixx's book.

His were all leather though.

Definitely minimal shoes but pretty much every shoe was back then.

A similar shoe would be the Tiger Mexico retro shoes available today.

My take on Clayton has always been as this mythical giant. I came of running age in 1975, so just missed out on him. I remember reading Runner's World when Billy was king and seeing sidebar excerpts about Clayton, but other than that there was little about him. He tanked in the Olympics, never won Commonwealth or European champs (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the picture of Clayton in my mind was always black and white and in the dark. He seemed massive. Kinda' scary.

He was like John Walker, except you never saw him.

Sorry, first coffe of the day...

Good day, all.

Pretty sure the 150+ miles are largely myth. I remember an article where he said he didn't discourage those reports because he wanted to intimidate his competitors. I am not saying he never did 150 mile week. They just weren't common

In his autobiography there's a photo of his training log from August, 1968. He ran 774 miles. As to shoes, like most of us in those years he ran in a variety of shoes. He started running in Dunlop Volleys, a tennis shoe. Tiger gave him real running shoes when he was at Fukuoka but he wasn't all that fond of them but I've sen photos of him racing in Tigers. There's a photo in his book where he was wearing adidas Gazelles, one of him in Mexico City in another adidas model that I don't recognize and a photo of him on the track at Crystal Palace in adidas, probably spikes.

a wrote:

Pretty sure the 150+ miles are largely myth. I remember an article where he said he didn't discourage those reports because he wanted to intimidate his competitors. I am not saying he never did 150 mile week. They just weren't common

Whether they were common place or not, he was injured A TON. Something like seven different surgeries. Noakes had him consistently running 160 miles per week and acknowledging in hindsight that he would have trained less intensely and built in more "recovery" had he to do it all over again.

It may well have been Clayton, I recall a quote from my younger days of reading Sports Illustrated (he talking about running):

"It's bloody boring at best and painful at worst but I want very much to be the best in the World at something."

There ya go.

Thank you HRE

Yes, he was injured a lot - I think closer to a dozen surgeries... Clarke said that he thought Clayton's training was far too hard, and considered this to be the cause of the frequent injuries...

I actually think the 150 mile weeks were the lighter weeks for Clayton...

Clarke told us quite a bit about Clayton's training weeks.

7 - 10 miles every morning, and a second longer harder session every afternoon, as an example the 17 miler with Clarke on Thursdays. Their long weekend run was what Clarke called a "mob jog", where dozens of runners showed up and started out together, and gradually peeled back at their limit. For Clarke, it was often around 22 miles, but Clayton sometimes took a longer way back, and went up to 30 miles on a Sunday. Apparently, the running was fairly easy, except for 2 hills, which the fitter guys ran pretty hard. One of the hills was 2 miles in length, without a break, not really steep but just kept going for 2 miles. So the fitter guys got up first of course, and then jogged around a bit so the others could catch up.

The other hill was shorter, but much steeper, I think around 1/2 mile, but very steep. Apparently, you almost had to crawl up it, you could barely run it, it was that steep.

So you can do the math on Clayton's training weeks, but I did hear estimates of up to 180 miles a week at times, and with a lot of quality running, so he could test his upper limits --- which he did a lot, like almost every day in training...

You're welcome.

Derek Clayton 6'2" wt 160lbs started racing in 1962 at 19.

Training ) Identical year aound) M AM 5 - 7 miles "easy"

PM 17 miles fast

Tu am 5 - 7 miles PM 12 miles medium

W am 5 - 7 miles PM 14 miles fast over hilly terrain

Th am 5 - 7 miles pm 14 miles fast over hilly course

Fr am 5 - 7 pm 10 miles easy

Sa am 4 miles PM 25 miles in about 2:20 once or twice a month runs xc or road race instead of Sa pm workout.

Su am 17 - 20 miles in hills PM 10 miles medium pace.

Clayton felt his track times would have been fsster if not for injuries.

"My training is mainly based on how I feel - no prearranged schedule. When training for a marathon I train long and hard. Due to my severe training, I have had many injuries,three of which put me in the hospital! The first operation I had three years ago was for a damaged achilles tendon. The second, 14 months ago was for the removal of my right lateral cartilage. The third December 1969, was for the removal of my right medial cartilage.

/ my note surgery back then was much different then now the whole thing was usually removed, MD's thought the cartilage was a vestigial ie nonfunctional structure./

I cannot foresee marathon times getting much below 2:10 because the training necessary to reach this standard requires miles and miles of fast running on the roads, ( perhaps shoe technology has made a difference)thereby incapacitating the athletes sooner or later through injury.

Best marks marathon 2:08:33.6 35K 1:46:11 20 miles 1:39:02, 30K 1:30:32, 25K 1:15:11 15 mile 72:04 10miles 48:18.6 10K 28:45 6 miles 27:48 5K 13:49.6 3 miles 13:24.4 3K 8:06.6 2 miles 8:37 1500 3:51.8 1 mile 4:07.6 880 1:56.7 440 52.8

Source How They Train 2nd edition

I remember discussing Clayton with Dr. Costill when he visited Boulder. He felt Clayton was very efficient as a runner due to his low lactate production. Clayton max VO2 was only about 69.2. Costill felt he was capable of 2:08 based on the all the test data.

I've been trying to find a quote from Ron Clarke where he was talking about Derek Clayton's disposition and toughness. It was something about Clayton looking absolutely trashed around 10 miles of a run and Clarke feeling good. But as they were approaching 18 miles, Clayton was churning along faster and faster and Clarke was the one who was dragging. Clayton says he trained at least once a week with Clarke, and that it usually turned out to be a really hard session.

I got a chance to talk with both of them when they visited the west coast at some type of a Runner's World meeting before they sold the magazine. Clayton and Clarke got into a friendly but quite lively exchange about training, which left the normally unabashed Clayton rather speechless, perhaps more a concession to his respect his friend.

However, this aggressiveness of Clarke's greatly impressed me, and I have thought very highly of him ever since. He took considerable time conversing with me, looking directly into my eyes the entire time, and though there was a crowd around, he paid them no attention. Derek Clayton was likewise quite generous, quite an exuberant fireball of a man, constantly full of exerburance, excitement, energy and activity.