6' 1"; 165 lbs/26:59 10k=East Africans are not genetically superior

Please use some logic before you post. I mean really, you're trying to say that the majority of the world's distance runners can't compete with the East Africans because they're intimidated? I don't think so. I'm sure this is the case sometimes, but i think there are some physiological factors at work here. How do you explain 17-18 year old Kenyan's who have just picked up the sport, posting low 27 minute times for 10k, when the Very best of the rest of the world take 10 more years of training to achieve a mark like that?

I'm not trying to say that we should all give up and that we can't compete with the East Africans, but then again, I'm rational enough with my thinking to believe that there are a lot more folks over in E.A. who appear to be genetically wired for endurance running than anywhere else in the world.

GWT wrote:

I'm not trying to say that we should all give up and that we can't compete with the East Africans, but then again, I'm rational enough with my thinking to believe that there are a lot more folks over in E.A. who appear to be genetically wired for endurance running than anywhere else in the world.

Bingo. It has been amazing to see Hall, Ritz, and Solinsky run some amazing times and break through some barriers. But really, it was just long overdue.

Solinsky is still 42 seconds slower than a very small man from east africa. He is 37 seconds slower than another very small man from east africa. His career will not be 1/100th as successful as those very, slight, elfin-like men from east africa. Is he gonna win 10 world cross titles ? Is he gonna run sub 2:04? Is he gonna run win 4 or more 10k WC's in a row? No, no, no, no.

So as amazing as it is to see what Solinsky did, the gap is still there, and the best little men from E africa are still a LOT faster than the big, galloping horses from the rest of the world. This takes NOTHING away from what Solinsky did. It just proves the OP wrong.

(Oh, and Solinsky has lost weight. I am sure he was not 165 for that race. )

Short kenyans run fast because kenyans are short (a larger group to draw talent from) not because shortness makes them fast. Tergat for example was like 6ft tall, Kiprop is over 6ft tall and so on. As far as weight, unless he steps on a scale I don't really trust most of the list weights. Where do they come from, when werethe measured,... Solinsky looks big but is he 150 or 165. I couldn't tell you.

GWT wrote:

How do you explain 17-18 year old Kenyan's who have just picked up the sport, posting low 27 minute times for 10k, when the Very best of the rest of the world take 10 more years of training to achieve a mark like that?

First of all, there are not a bunch of 17-18 year old Kenyans who just walk on to the track and run a low 27. You have also bought into the myth that Kenyans are genetically superior.

You are probably referring to Paul Tanui, who ran a 27:17 at age 19. But Tanui isn't some kid who walked out of a village and just started busting out times on the track. Tanui trains in Japan with professional coaching. He has not just "picked up the sport".

Culture is the reason so many East Africans are fast. They run as kids as means of transportation. And when they aren't running to get from home to school or to the village, they are playing soccer.

Psychology is the reason non-East Africans actually got slower in the 1990s before slowly gaining back ground lost in the last decade. Everyone bought into the hypothesis that East Africans are genetically superior and gave up on trying to compete with them. That is the main reason US runners have not been able to keep up. They have convinced themselves that the just are not supposed to be able to run like the E. Africans.

Hold on a second, you point out the heavier frame, the difference in size and physical features, but then you explain this by saying they're intimidated? Why doesn't the different physical features have anything to do with it? Do you think maybe our lifestyle, resulting in different body frames and less people with a body frame suited for long distance running would explain why we're not faster? Maybe those guys should live like the E. Africans and look like them, at least partially, before they can RUN like them. To me, this just proves that Americans have genetically altered themselves to where they are more suited to live the suburban lifestyle and not be out there breaking their backs just to feed themselves and their families. That's why our bodies look different, and that combined with the fact that many more people don't even try running=an explanation. Look at Ritz and Solinsky. Ritz was not a 5k guy... all of a sudden he tries the 5k and gets the AR by 2 seconds. Solinsky is a 5k guy who debuts in the 10k and absolutely smashes the AR! Just imagine if nearly everyone actually tried their running talent and became good. We might actually be pretty close to the E. Africans if not almost equal to them. But we've got guys like Verzbicas who wants to be a triathlete and a 15year old running 4:14 for the mile who plays football instead of running cross country. The lack of focus is what's killing us, just like the lack of a need to swim has kept the Africans as well as most African-Americans away from being some of the best swimmers in the world.

a wrote:

Short kenyans run fast because kenyans are short (a larger group to draw talent from) not because shortness makes them fast. Tergat for example was like 6ft tall, Kiprop is over 6ft tall and so on.

Tergat is very outspoken about the genetic superiority issue because he is tall, did not grow up living at elevation (and doesn't even train at elevation) and is not from the same tribe as all the distance runners (forgot the name). Tergat says it is mental strength, not physical genetics that is why East Africans have done better than US/Euro runners. Terat says that US/Euro runner are not able to overcome the "pain barrier".(http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0404/1224244012141.html if you have a subscription)

And another kenyan (I think it was kipketer) pointed out that the YOU have bought into the myth that all kenyan kids run to school.

Look, you've proven nothing worth your posts. You posted your beliefs, and that is fine, but don't act like you've made some comprehensive argument.

And no one said you could not be tall. Tergat has a bmi of about 3.

Mzungus can run too wrote:

Culture is the reason so many East Africans are fast. They run as kids as means of transportation. And when they aren't running to get from home to school or to the village, they are playing soccer.

I think this is a very important point here. The more people you have running the more likely you are to produce a few world class runners.

If running were to be more popular in the US I'd bet the US would pop out even more world class runners... Who knows, maybe there's guys that could kick Hall's and Solinsky's ass but they're too busy playing COD and drinking mountain dew to realize it.

Running, as in boxing seems to be dominated by the guys that have the least to lose...

There are plenty of other examples of very young africans who compete at levels higher then 99 percent of the rest of the world regardless of age. Have you witnessed World XC's? Perhaps that's a bad example given the lack of accountability with birth certificates etc.. But still, there are plenty of under 20 year olds in East Africa who kick the crap out of most professional athletes in the States and from other parts of the world, who have spent substantially more time building their aerobic systems then their younger African counterparts.

You make some good points in your arguments but honestly they don't hold a lot of water when you look at the big picture. Yes, we lose plenty of talented runners or potential runners to other sports in the U.S. and to the couch... But what about Japan? They have fewer sports stealing their talent away from running, and running is much more popular over there.. But why aren't they competing well against the Kenyans or Ethiopians?

Have you ever looked at Japan's All Time 1500m lists? They're not too fast. Is this because Japanese 1500m runners aren't tough enough, or as tough as Kenyan's or Americans? I'm just curious.

Even better, why aren't the Kenyan's or Ethiopians competing well against our 400m runners? Is it because their 200-400m runners don't believe that they can run with us? No, i think most would agree that Kenyan's generally aren't wired for 200-400m running right?! At least not to the degree that the world's best are. Why can't we acknowledge the fact that people aren't created equal for everything? Sometimes folks from different parts of the world seem to have an advantage at some things over others. It doesn't mean that there aren't some exceptions, and that we can't develop folks to be more competitive with East Africans.. But generally differences exist. It's not just a mental issue.

1) Ryan Hall is 5'9", not 5'11"

2) Solinsky is a huge (literally) anomaly, easily 10-15 lbs bigger than any other American Record holder, much less the World Record holders. And he had to lose some serious muscle mass to get to this level. The strongest performance ever for a European/caucasian is by a guy who weighed 115 lbs.

3) Being small and light is an advantage IN GENERAL, giving the Africans with their stringy muscles and bird-bones a running head-start. Sure, SOME Westerners will be able to work their way among their ranks, but they will be the genetic outliers. There are far more youngsters running competitively each year in the U.S. than in Kenya, yet they demolish our juniors at every level above 400m.

4) Paul Tergat at 6'0" is still 20 lbs lighter than most elite Westerners of the same height.

4) Go Chris!

Almost every high school and college in the US has cross country and track. There are lots of Americans who run, and run well. And Kenyans would generally rather play soccer or cricket (much better money) than be distance runners. We are just convinced that our body type does not allow us to compete with East Africans. Teg, Solinsky, and Hall have shown that body type may very well be grossly overrated.

I think the barrier is mental. Hall started it by dropping a 59 on his first half. Teg and Ritz followed by going sub 13. Now Solinsky (and even Rupp's 27:10, to a lesser degree) has proven that US runners can compete with East Africans regardless of genetics.

Mzungus can run too wrote:

Culture is the reason so many East Africans are fast.

. . .

Psychology is the reason non-East Africans actually got slower in the 1990s before slowly gaining back ground lost in the last decade.

Golly, thanks for giving us the definitive explanations for these matters. Some of us get so hung up on nuances, details, complexities, and uncertainties that we fail to see what is so clear to you.

Paul Tergat, by the way, is Kalenjin, like most top Kenyan distance runners. (He is from the Tugen subtribe.) I don't know where you got the idea that he isn't from "altitude," unless you don't consider 2000m and the N'gong hills to be "altitude."

I always think the main flaw in these types of arguments is trying to reduce the "cause" of East-African domination to the one single "biggest reason".It won't take long to search these forums to find at least 10 valid reasons ranging from genetics, culture, training, opportunity, mentality, diet, habits, technology, etc. I'm sure everyone has there own personal favorite too.Mine is weight. Physically speaking, it simply takes much less energy to propel 120 pounds than 160, and it generates less lost energy as heat. Yet "white" 120 pound athletes are, pound for pound, weaker than "white" 160 pound athletes, and also straight up weaker than "East African" 120 pound athletes. That is, for distance events, 120 pound "white" athletes simply can not sustain the required power to weight ratios, for the same distances. I haven't developed or researched this opinion, but that's where I would start, if I were so inclined.I forget the exact numbers, but Timothy Noakes gives a detailed numerical analysis in "The Lore of Running" that says for every "white" elite distance athlete, there are 80 "East African" elite athletes (maybe corrected for the respective populations). This is not simply due to mentality, but the multiplicative combination of several factors.Just the same, Solinsky ran a great 10K, for a beginner.

How about sprinter?

I don't know whether or not east africans are "genetically wired" for distance running, but I think its funny that their one nation that consistently competes with the Kenyans and Ethiopians (and occasionaly Ugandans and Eritreans) is Morocco. Obviously, there are lots of drug allegations with morrocco, but most of the morroccans who I have seen competing on a world stage look a whole lot more European than they look East African.

but most of the morroccans who I have seen competing on a world stage look a whole lot more European than they look East African.

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They are not built like Euros at all.

I think it is simply a matter of the East Africans having the most efficient selection system for distance runners.

My best friend in junior high was from Kenya (father was in the US consulate). He was huge. A total linebacker build. So were his brothers. A friend in college's parents were Kenyan. She was a 200/100 runner in college. Again, nothing like the build of a distance runner. She was taller and had much more muscle.

Kenyans and Ethiopians are not all built like distance runners, but the Kenyans and Ethiopians who are built like distance runners get selected to run in school and by clubs, coaches, agents, etc.

In the US, if you are built like a distance runner, as a kid, you are probably excluded from sports because you cannot throw, hit, jump, sprint, etc. well enough to be good at baseball, basketball, soccer or football. Thus, the people who are built like distance runners in the US are not being encouraged to be distance runners and are actually discouraged from athletics in general. This is cultural.

Within those who are distance runners, I do believe that US runners are going to begin to catch up with the East Africans because of the mental boost that comes with seeing Solinsky and others break time barriers. Regardless of the E. Africans, broken barriers raise the bar for US runners. Instead of thinking that it would be great to be a sub 28 10k guy, people will think that they should be shooting for low 27s. That is an important mental aspect of the sport.

The real mental barrier has not been broken. Teg, Ritz, Hall, Solinsky and others have not won top races against their East African peers. Breaking down time barriers helps, but until medals are won, the real barrier remains.