Mile/1500m record stagnation--all more than TEN YEARS old!

An El G doesn't come along every decade, that's for sure.

The started to get better tests for PEDs

No they didn't

the mile is a distance that is not run very often in international competition, like the 3-5-10k's are.

not sure about the 1500 record.

You're right. These records have been around for a while. Why don't you just go out and break them for us to shut everyone up.

The reason these times are still standing is probably because most middle and distance runners were using EPO in the late '90's/early '00's, which was undetected until late 2000. After that the test was clearly unreliable as both Jones & Ramzi went undetected for quite a few years.

To have one outlier is reasonable, but to have 3 guys running 3:26 (or Mile equivalent) at same time with also- rans like Baala & Cacho running 3:28, and sub 3:30 common place, is just a nonsense.

Had it continued then maybe it would just be down to African advances or whatever, but as no one has broken 3:29 for what, 5 years(?) and only a couple have broken 3:30 in that time, I'd say there was something not quite right about those times back then.

I'm sure EPO would turn a 3:29 guy into a 3:26 one. And lets face it, if you knew that you couldn't possibly get caught and with the likelihood that most of your peers were on it too, then it would take exceptional upstanding moral judgement not to comply.

We will probably see another wave of outstanding times in the near future when the cheats start using new products that the testers can't keep up with.

historical progression!? wrote:

I'm sure EPO would turn a 3:29 guy into a 3:26 one.

You really can't say for certain. Cova ran while he wasn't blood doping than while he was.

historical progression!? wrote:

And lets face it, if you knew that you couldn't possibly get caught and with the likelihood that most of your peers were on it too, then it would take exceptional upstanding moral judgement not to comply.

Some people will cheat if given the opportunity (whether it's sport, finance, personal relationships, etc) and others won't. You'll recall that 3:26 and 3:27s have been run since the advent of EPO testing.

We will probably see another wave of outstanding times in the near future when the cheats start using new products that the testers can't keep up with.

Not when WADA is storing samples for future testing. And especially now that the HGH test is out there.

I don't know of many attacks on these records without pacers. Banister's race was paced even with rules against it. (The pacer had to finish the race for the record to count). Aouita and Cram dueled after the pacers droppred off.

The British National records remain from the mid 80's.

Only two men have broken either the mile or 1500 WR since 1986: Morceli and El G.

Most of the sub 3:30's that have been run were from people chasing those two.

Kenya keeps producing the top talent but they don't seem to stay on the scene long enough to really develop to get records. I think a lot of that has to do with the way Kenya controls their athletes. Lagat was always US based when he was cranking out fast times as a Kenyan.

The Ramzi positive was a big deal and may have scared some people. But I think as a rule the athletes will always be ahead of the testers.

I think Webb was doing a good job of progressing and testing his limits against the clock and could push people towards records if he couldn't get it himself. But he's faded and was labled a time-trialer. Apparently the average person can run 3:30 if they just follow someone.

Last but not least, who's going to do it?

It's allll about drug testing.

Surprise! wrote:

An El G doesn't come along every decade, that's for sure.

This is the correct answer.

I think a lot of running fans have their heads in the sand. If you want to know about doping in endurance sports during the last 20 years, read up on this sordid history of professional cycling.

Some things you'll learn are:

EPO came into widespread use in early 90s. It was completely undetectable throughout the decade. Even now testing is not full proof, and the window after injection is pretty small.

When a running athlete gets busted (Alminova, Merrit this week), it doesn't mean the system works. It means those athletes got their program wrong, or were incredibly unlucky.

I certainly wouldn't trust any of the athletes managed by the Italians. That country is dirty as they come for cycling, and it would be foolish to think that the running scene was any different. That said, I think that some of the athletes they manage (Kenyans) don't know they're doping.

oh pleas yerself. If people want to dope, let em take the risk. To everyone else, look for legal ways to improve, i.e. better training. You can always improve your training, or get a better coach, or surround yourself with positive people, who aren't obsessed with drugs.

Do you think those poor little African kids who can't affort shoes are doping? They can kick 99.999% of rich white boys butts, and will continue to do so for a long time.

on the runs wrote:

historical progression!? wrote:

I'm sure EPO would turn a 3:29 guy into a 3:26 one.

You really can't say for certain. Cova ran while he wasn't blood doping than while he was.

That doesn't excuse doing it. There would be little point wasting money and putting someone's health at risk if there wasn't overwhelming evidence to support the benefits of EPO use to performance in the majority of cases.

on the runs wrote:

Some people will cheat if given the opportunity (whether it's sport, finance, personal relationships, etc) and others won't. You'll recall that 3:26 and 3:27s have been run since the advent of EPO testing.

I've already made the point that Ramzi was almost certainly using when he won the World Championship double back in 2005, and then ran a 3:29.14 from the front off a 52.5 opening 400m in 2006. That's worth around 3:25 when calculated using even splits. There's no one even remotely capable of doing that now. He got away with it for at least 3 or 4 seasons until testing positive in 2008. If he could, then why shouldn't other before him when the testing would have been less sophisticated?

I know WADA are keeping samples now, but I'm pretty sure they haven't got samples going back to the late 90's. I think the keeping of samples only started in 2008.

Testing is never full proof. Look at Jones, Lagat, etc. There are anomalies, innacuracies, all sorts.

If you look at the splits of the middle distance WR's set in the late 90's, they were all set off ridiculously fast opening 200 or 400m, where the athlete was well inside the schedule. Whenever this had happened in the past, they would invariably slow and miss out, but these bunch of athletes were able to sustain this initial speed without normal human effects of lactic acid build up seemingly effecting them. Of course there is no way of proving all this, but I for one am very sceptical.

Past mile gaps8 years between Taber and Numi8 years between Nrumi and Ladomegue9 years between Andersson and Hagg8 years between Ryun and Bayi8 years between Cram and Morceili6 years between Morceili and El GI don't have a list of the 1500m but I expect slightly smaller gaps.I doubt pacing has gotten much better since the El G and Morcelli days.And I think it would be more accurate to say a HS kid was running 4s off the wr rather than 10 years.

a wrote:

I think it would be more accurate to say a HS kid was running [4.6]s off the wr rather than 10 years.

Point taken--though the fact that sub-four miling was only ten years old (when Ryun ran his) was very much part of the reason for all the hype.

Okay, so let me re-phrase: Imagine an American high school kid running sub-3:48 for a mile (or 3:30.xx for a 1500), to get a better idea of how big a deal Ryun's feats were.

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Not precisely on point, but I love this video of Ryun's winning the 1965 Kansas State meet, with his Wichita East teammate Mike Petterson second:

Amazing to think that a kid could run ~74 for the last quarter, and get second (at ~4:19) in the State meet! God, that must have hurt...

Yeah it is crazy. How about Lindgrens 5/10k. Imagine a high schooler running something like 12:47 or 27:20 for 10k.

tw4 wrote:

a wrote:

I think it would be more accurate to say a HS kid was running [4.6]s off the wr rather than 10 years.

Point taken--though the fact that sub-four miling was only ten years old (when Ryun ran his) was very much part of the reason for all the hype.

Okay, so let me re-phrase: Imagine an American high school kid running sub-3:48 for a mile (or 3:30.xx for a 1500), to get a better idea of how big a deal Ryun's feats were.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not precisely on point, but I love this video of Ryun's winning the 1965 Kansas State meet, with his Wichita East teammate Mike Petterson second:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaGDIKoh-g8

Amazing to think that a kid could run ~74 for the last quarter, and get second (at ~4:19) in the State meet! God, that must have hurt...

@ the poster above:

Havent several African runners run faster than 27:20 at that age? Wanjiru, Bekele, Sihine, Tariku, etc

Back to the topics...

10+ years since a world record? Records usually last for a longer time. Look at other sports. Also, there are really no definite superstars of the mile right now. In other words, maybe there is no one good enough to break any records or to come close. Sure, there are athletes with 'potential', but no one with very great actual results or longevity. Also, maybe sitting & kicking is the 'in' tactic right now. All of these facts put together makes it hard to run under 3:30.

Why no fast times? You could liken this slow era to the "slow" 90s era of U.S. high school and professional running. What were they doing then? using anti-EPO which slowed them down? I say no. It was just a slow era. Stagnation happens.

Don't forget about Kipcheaters 12 1/2 year old 800m record. As soon as better testing popped up, his times slowed like molasses and he never won an olympics.

Exactly what are you saying?