Ptizinger Or Daniels 10k Schedule

IanRunner wrote:

Hi Im planning on following one these plans for a 10k in mid July. Its going to be one of my main races of the year. My best 10k upto now is 38:37 but I seem to be struggling at the moment as I did 19.00 5k just last week. I have followed Ptizinger before but it seems to be lacking speedwork in comparison to Daniels.

I've been running for nearly 3 years. My best 10k was in Novembder last year. I can fit in about 50 miles per week max.

I appreciate everyones opinions.

Ian

hmmm...Pfitzinger has run hundreds of competitive 10k's, competed in the Olympics, has REAL intimate knowledge of what athletes do.

And Daniels?

I don't know anything about Daniels' 10k plan, but I've followed Pfitzinger's plans for 5k, 10k, and marathon with pretty good results. I'm not surprised to hear you say that Daniels' plan has more speedwork, becuase Pfitzinger has very little volume faster than 5k pace. His explanation is basically that beyond 5k or so, aerobic metabolism is key, and you should focus on developing those systems over foot speed or anaerobic metabolism. He puts in quite a bit of VO2 max intervals at 3k-5k pace to help that along. My own opinion is that Pfitzinger is light on tempo work, but maybe that's just true for me. Last year I did a modified Pfitzinger marathon plan with more long runs at MP or just a little slower, and felt like I was in PR shape until I sprained my ankle the week of the race.

That has got be worst argument made on the Board recently. Unless you count the LeBron can run 50 seconds thread.

Any opinions on Daniels then?

I followed the Daniels' 5-15K plan last summer and had taken a significant chunk off my previous PB by the end of the training cycle. I'm always a little confused when people talk about DRF having a lot of speedwork because that's not how it looks to me and I'm definitely not a workout junkie by any stretch.

The plan is periodised well, starting with 6 weeks of base building (or more if you have the time), then 6 weeks of 200-400m reps at c.1500m pace but relaxed or hill repeats plus a tempo session each week. These workouts really prepare you well for the third phase which comprises your bread and butter VO2 Max sessions at 5K pace plus continued tempo sessions. The final 6 weeks have workouts combining the different training intensities that you have worked on throughout the cycle and worked very well for me in terms of peaking for my final 10K race. As I recall, you can have a third workout in each week but I chose not to do this and ran more aerobic mileage instead - to my benefit I believe.

Anyway, I would recommend DRF plans to any runner as I think they are fundamentally sound and can work for many levels of ability. However, you need to be able to read between the lines, understand the PRINCIPLES and adjust to your own needs, strengths and weaknesses - just as with any other training plan.

Good luck.

Clockme wrote:

That has got be worst argument made on the Board recently. Unless you count the LeBron can run 50 seconds thread.

Why is it a bad argument?

I have read Daniel's stuff, seems generic, nothing ground-breaking, and in fact I read a few things that just make no sense in the practical world.

General running advice is pretty easy to provide. Any middle of the road training combined with a great attitude and confidence will make you a better runner. I am certain Daniel's plan works, and if you believe in it, well, then it probably can work well.

That siad, I already know how to train.

What I want is the experience of someone from the trenches who could bring some real world actual experience to my training and competitive efforts.

For me, the answer is easy. Daniel's may be able to draw up a blue-print, but Pfitzinger has actually hammered a nail. Pfitzinger knows what it is like to drive it straight and he has also smashed his hand. I don't want theory, I want experience.

Now tell me, why is this the worst reasoned response ever?

For starters, even though Pfitz unquestionably has the experience, that's not mostly what you're getting in his book. Take a close look at how Pfitz actually trained vs. what he writes.

Pfitz the author and Daniels the author are really pretty much in the same camp, a lot more overlap than differences.

If either or both work for you, terrific. Don't think you're getting "secrets of real-world elite training" though.

Are there any "secrets of real-world elite training" though?

Whenever I look at the training logs of elite athletes, particularly from the golden age (e.g. Bill Rodgers, Bob Hodge, Malmo) there's nothing special there. It's just day in, day out banging in the miles (seemingley as many as their bodies would handle) plus some speed and strength work. A simple formula that saw success time after time.

Some of the greatest minds in sports were not participants in the sports. If we relied solely on people who had "hammered the nail" so to speak where would we be ? We would rely on anecdotal evidence of success that is wildly unpredictable and inaccurate. Nothing wrong with Pfitz in my opinion. But to discount Dr. Daniels because he was not an elite level runner is not reasonable (or wise IMO).

Daniels showed empirical evidence in his research an coaching. I find this to hold more sway than how something felt or what someones experience has been.

You may well know how to train, and not knowing you I can not claim otherwise. I will say that I dont agree with Pfitz and his 5K pace workouts. I believe they are in middle ground and the time should be spent at VO2M or at LT, but not hovering in between.

With all due respect.

nsmb, old and slow wrote:

that's not mostly what you're getting in his book. Take a close look at how Pfitz actually trained vs.

Who said anything about the book?

The OP did not mention book, and both of these guys are accessible via e-mail, phone calls, and they offer their services.

Daniel's, I am certain, would be a good high school/college coach. And he probably could help in some kind of physiologist/consultant manner, but if you are even a partially competent athlete, you would only require him as an ancillary consultant.

But as you progress through your running career, you will find that you rely less and less on coaches and more and more on your peers.

Daniels is not a peer, Pfitzinger is.

Daniels has no "secrets", he has no experience, Pfitzinger has the knowledge and experience.

Example - When I was a kid I watched a race on TV that Pfitzinger won. He won in an unexpected manner. The interviewer asked why he chose his strategy. Pfitzinger scratched his beard and said "I woke up this morning feeling aggressive, I decided to go with it."

I have never forgotten that answer, it was an answer AND a LESSON that only a guy like him could provide.

He is a competitor!

Follow the Adams State plan, but build up to it gradually.

This guy is absolutely right, I mean sure Daniels has coached a couple okay people, but when you get down to it you really need someone who's been there. That's why Joe Vigil was such a terrible coach. That crap may be okay for a high schooler or something, but we're talking about a sub 38 10k here - there's no time for messing around with some slowpoke "coach".

The OP opened with "Im planning on following one these plans," mentions having "followed Ptizinger before," and asks us to consider differences between the plans including a difference in speedwork content. Do you reckon he's really asking for input on customized training plans he's received directly from these guys (and not described to us)?

Really?

That's a fine answer, but it's one *I*, a fortysomething age grouper, would give, have given. What's the lesson - go with your instincts? If so, yeah, that's crucial... but hardly a unique insight.

If you get inspiration from this sort of thing, more power to ya. But why you'd reckon "I woke up this morning feeling aggressive, I decided to go with it" translates to a superior book-based training prescriptions, I don't get, any more than why someone would choose a cola or a car based on admiring the athlete who endorses that brand.

I'd have said "more and more on yourself."

Motorbreath: Are there any "secrets of real-world elite training" though?

No, not really, unless they hide them really well. I'm with you.

OTOH it does seem like some of the simple principles and practices (miles make champions, listening to one's body, not leaving one's race in training...) remain out of reach to many, even if they're not exactly secret.

Exactly. Thats the part I basically disagree with. 5K pace is not VO2Max.

If you have ever hear JD talk about this, you would see that he agrees that aerobic metabolism is the key also. The fast stuff is obviously geared towards economy.

edumacator wrote:

This guy is absolutely right, I mean sure Daniels has coached a couple okay people, but when you get down to it you really need someone who's been there. . . . we're talking about a sub 38 10k here - there's no time for messing around with some slowpoke "coach".

I'm fairly sure this post was intended humorously. Well played, sir.

Also, you all know that JD has two Olympic medals and PP has none, right?

edumacator wrote:

This guy is absolutely right, I mean sure Daniels has coached a couple okay people, but when you get down to it you really need someone who's been there. That's why Joe Vigil was such a terrible coach. That crap may be okay for a high schooler or something, but we're talking about a sub 38 10k here - there's no time for messing around with some slowpoke "coach".

Your point is taken. The level that the OP is at might make this a moot point.

Your sarcasm is not required. I did not say Daniels is not a good coach, but having to select between the two choices I answered honestly.

Vigil appears to be a good coach,

but, is it true or not true that as of late our very successful runners, in general, are coming out of camps that have much more of a peer directed program?

lease wrote:

I'm fairly sure this post was intended humorously. Well played, sir.

Also, you all know that JD has two Olympic medals and PP has none, right?

Jasey Jay Anderson has a Gold Medal and Paul Tergat does not!

BINGO