USATF Chip Rule Hellp: Robbed of Victory

You got beat by a girl for the overall win?

Don't show up at the awards is the best advice.

USATF rules only matter if it's a USATF sanctioned race. USATF Championships and sanctioned events go by gun time only, but any other race can do it any way they want.

I doubt it's the software anyway, as everyone would be off by the same amount.

If she indeed started next to you as you claim your best bet is to ask around and see if there was picture or video of the start. Barring that, if the race chooses to do awards off chip time it's their right, so buck up and deal with it.

... and never run their race again. It's a lame way to win a race.

Make sure you're attending the awards ceremony. If the person in question accepts the first place award, ask them to look you in the eye and tell you that they truly believe that they are the winner. If they still do, then tell them what you mentioned in your post about starting next to them at the start, and that you finished 12 seconds ahead of them. If they still insist that they are the winner, let it go, consider the source, but also write numerous letters to every USATF official that might have anything to do with everything. Make sure the same letters go to every official and race director of the race.

Please post a follow up to this situation. I am really curious as to the outcome.

talk to her. offer to buy her a drink afterward. i would think she would know if you beat her. 12 sec is close enough for her to see you in front of her. she was probably trying to catch you. people can be reasonable if you talk to them.

Free Advice wrote: If they still insist that they are the winner, let it go, consider the source, but also write numerous letters to every USATF official that might have anything to do with everything. Make sure the same letters go to every official and race director of the race.

Again, before you start haranging USATF see if this is a USATF sanctioned event. If not, you're wasting your time. The vast majority aren't. Harassing the RD is fair game, but there's no point ragging on someone that nothing to do with the issue.

What does the race app say? Most chip races state who awards will be decided.

Rule 245, section 1:

"Officials at the finish should record each number as the athlete completes the race, along with the athlete’s finish time. The order in which the athletes cross the finish line will be the official finish position."

See the rule book at:

http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2009/2009USATFRules.pdf

They seemed to have removed the section that states that gun time is the official time, not chip time. That used to be clearly spelled out, unless I missed it. Probably due to influence from the timing companies.....

It's a race, not a time trial! First across wins.

USATF rules only matter if it's a USATF sanctioned race

Wrong!!! Any event may be conducted under USATF rules.

It's USATF certified. At least that's what their website states (the very last statement on this page)

http://www.sedonamarathon.com/faqs.html

Yes, I know it says marathon.....

This happened to a girl I know at a race once. The chip somehow had the girl who finished 3rd actually beating the two girls in front of her by 45 seconds. Luckily the girl knew she didn't win and they just all exchanged the money. When they talked to the timing company they had a backup system that had the correct results, it was just something that got messed up with the primary.

Since it is obviously over I would just let it go.

I believe USATF Certified refers to the course measurement only, and is different from a USATF sanctioned event.

Nope! wrote:

USATF rules only matter if it's a USATF sanctioned race

Wrong!!! Any event may be conducted under USATF rules.

Heck you could hold a bar mitzvah using USATF rules but that's not the point. Unless the race has a USATF sanction complaining to USATF about the rules doesn't mean anything, as does complaining to an RD about a "rules violation" when they never agreed to those rules in the first place.

So if the timing system is "off" and they don't follow USATF rules but the race distance is USATF certified, times are official for Boston, road race championships, etc.? And it's sanctioned?

That makes no sense. In essence you are saying that I can get my course certified by USATF, not follow their rules, and still qualify people for Boston.

The person in question did not show up to awards so I was not able to speak with her. The entry form and web site do not include anything about physical finish vs. chip time finish. Many races, ex Rock and Roll go off of physical finish for overall and chips for age group awards. The issue was not resolved and an interesting situation was presented. I feel like it is a race, the runners responsibility to get to the start on time and a runners responsibility to line up in a position that best fits their abilities on the start line of the local 5k. Also, how long after the gun should someone be allowed to start the race? Can someone wait around 15-20 min for the winner of the local 5k to cross the finish then go out and time trial it and try to beat the time? I would have loved a fair and square sprint finish with the girl in question.

I attended the race with a large group of runners and walked into the group post race breakfast late after dealing with the mess to a room full of congrats then had to go and explain even though I crossed the finish first I was not first. Embarassing, hard to explain and the differenc in prizes between 1st and 2nd was $250.

Keith Stone wrote:

Heck you could hold a bar mitzvah .

Keith,

Where is this bar you speak of?

MSCoach wrote:

So if the timing system is "off" and they don't follow USATF rules but the race distance is USATF certified, times are official for Boston, road race championships, etc.? And it's sanctioned?

There's no proof timing was "off", and Boston accepts chip times for qualification. So yes to that part. Some champtionships may acess chip times for seeding and qualification. So a maybe to that. USATF sanction is different that certification. Certification says the course is the right length and adheres to separation and drop standards. So certified, yes, sanctioned, apparently not.

That makes no sense. In essence you are saying that I can get my course certified by USATF, not follow their rules, and still qualify people for Boston.

Yes, you can, and the vast majority of marathons in the US do exactly that. Boston doesn't give a rip how the race you ran gives out awards (and why should they?). They care that the course is the right length (certified) and that timing is accurate. Still no real proof timing was inaccurate in this case as far as chip time, since it's just a she said, she said situation about who started in what position.

I'll note that many marathon used to require USATF membership. You signed up, if you didn't have a USATF number you paid an extra $15 that made you a USATF member. At one point marathoners forced to join USATF were a majority of USATF members but had little voting power. Runners as a group protested this requirement, and marathons (NYC started the ball rolling) stopped requiring USATF membership.

Marathons got their own insurance (the primary reason to get a sanction) and did things their own way. That's exactly what happens with 90% of the road races. They don't get USATF officials, bother with sanctions, rules, etc, they just get the course measured and call it a day.