Run Sub 2:34 & Get Extra Credit on SAT / Chinese Cheating Scandal

kind of makes me see how communist(or formerly communist) countries have leaders who will get a reward system going just to get their citizens to be the best of the best...so the best are rewarded with deep political connections and treated like royalty......East Germany..doping...

... Reminds me of how some in North Korea will work their butt off so they can put on a cheerleading show for Kim Jung Ill and avoid extreme poverty.

"The exams are so crucial to the future of Chinese children that both students and their families will go to extraordinary lengths to guarantee success. Last year, eight parents and teachers were jailed on state secret charges after using communication devices - including scanners and wireless earpieces - to help pupils cheat."

Yeah that crap is nuts. So glad I don't live there. They view things in black and white. There are so many people there that you have to work your friggin butt off to stand out and live a good life - and if you dont, well, your parents will give you a spanking.

They also view intelligence in linear fashion...

G-d help you if you have are a talented artist or have a learning disability in China. They view things in very concrete fashion. They like pure intellect and the creativity sucks there.

and in america you get better sat scores for being white. maybe they should adapt our testing methods in China, there would be far few oriental accountants coming over to our country, and more railroad workers instead, just like back in the glory days.

Is that for women or men?

Morning Bear wrote:

and in america you get better sat scores for being white. maybe they should adapt our testing methods in China, there would be far few oriental accountants coming over to our country, and more railroad workers instead, just like back in the glory days.

i would say in america you get better SAT scores if you grew up in a family where English is well-spoken, good public schools or private school....then you're in good shape. Colleges take (or should take) into consideration how the SAT score compares with others who graduated from the high school...so if it's an inner city school and the valedictorian/top of the class only graduate(s) with an 1100-1200 (out of 1600), give the guy some slack because, fault or not, the environment (crappy schooling/learning environment) certainly had something to do with it.

Plus, colleges use affirmative action the same way they single out those with talent and diversity....if you're an exceptional athlete and not a moron (e.g. SAT above 800-900combined), usually you can get a full D1 scholarship. If you've only got a 1200 SAT but the Ivy needs a Bassoon player for the orchestra, maybe you'll get into that Ivy.

Damn ...so glad I live in America. THe competitive culture so sickening over there. It's also sickening in some American schools but there are loopholes if you can develop special talents (exceptional athlete, exceptional artist, etc.) making in my opinion USA admission system more encouraging than discouraging.

DiarheaExplosionInMyShorts wrote:

Damn ...so glad I live in America. THe competitive culture so sickening over there. It's also sickening in some American schools but there are loopholes if you can develop special talents (exceptional athlete, exceptional artist, etc.) making in my opinion USA admission system more encouraging than discouraging.

I think it's the reverse. I think it's more discouraging here. You work your butt off, get perfect SATs and the highest GPA in your class and do well at running, but you get rejected from your dream school. But the mediocre photographer on the yearbook committee gets in despite lower scores across the board (this happened in my highschool to two of my friends). In the US, you can do as well as humanly possible and still get rejected. Where's the fairness in that? Who can predict what colleges are looking for? Sure, maybe they need another bassoon player, but that sort of system hardly leads to equality of opportunity -- how many bassoon players do you know who grew up in the middle of the ghetto?

In China, at least it's fair. You know what the requirements are and how to achieve them. The difference is that there are more people there who really care about getting a good education.

I should also note that I am not claiming that these tests measure any specific thing -- certainly not intelligence, since much of the material is learned through memorization. But maybe it's a combination of intelligence, memorization, speed, test taking abilities, and a couple of other things.

Culture of shame vs culture of guilt.

If you cheat, you are smart.

If you cheat and get caught, you lose face.

Baby formula cut with chemicals...lead paint on toys...

This is entirely consistent....I don't know why anybody is surprised at the SCALE of cheating...

In local races here in Taiwan, people cheat for age-group titles. Somebody was busted last spring in a 10k trying to win 50-55 mens.

It is the way things are done. There is no shame in cheating. Only in being caught...

Read the article - parents encourage it. They participate in it. They teach their children that RESULTS are all that matters.

Well if you're an athlete with good grades and the ivy already has athletes with good grades, you're boring to them. And having a near perfect SAT doesn't help. Seems like the top schools have average incoming SATs in the 1400's. You can look it up at review.com

We in the USA have to be worried because china is growing so fast. Most of western china areas so poor they pretty much eat dog food. But All those craploads of people in china are now demanding much higher standards of living and are going to want cars and nice houses, etc...

I admit I am racist/biased against chinese because many are aholes and greedy in that they come here to the US and work their tail off, often at the expense of health, to graduate next to the top of public high schools. My public high school the chinese valedictorian only got 4 hours of sleep a night!!

The chinese kids parents often move into rich towns where there are good public schools, but then live in the crappy apartments where property taxes are low, and then move away to areas with cheaper taxes for the schools as soon as kids are done with 12th grade.

I heard kids talking about how its a disadvantage if you're asian and applying to the top schools, as opposed to caucasian!!!

Financial/societal incentive yields a 30% cheating rate at the top. This is a window opened on the prevalence of cheating w/PEDS in professional/serious amateur sport.

Off the Grid wrote:

In local races here in Taiwan, people cheat for age-group titles. Somebody was busted last spring in a 10k trying to win 50-55 mens.

It is the way things are done. There is no shame in cheating. Only in being caught...

Read the article - parents encourage it. They participate in it. They teach their children that RESULTS are all that matters.

Shut up you racist. You just hate asian people because they make liberals and other minorities look bad by working so hard.

Asians are as a group the hardest working people in the world. Its because they are so competitive and work so hard, that for the losers in their societies, the only way to the top is by cheating.

Maybe they also cheated on all the IQ tests they took and outperformed white people by leaps and bounds, who knows right?

cheating is the norm in Asia (and most of the world, actually).

I've lived here +17yrs, and this is what I see.

If you don't cheat, you are considered stupid and naive.

Nobody goes to China for the nice beaches, friendly people, open society and rule of law. And 98% of those there would leave, given the chance.

Actually its because they use fear to control the boatloads of people...They have a mobile driving lethal injection execution camper van in china.

In general the chinese suck up to authority without question and are afraid to do things shady (most of the time) because of scare tactics the government uses. So its fine to be a little shady as long as you don't get caught. And since they have no strong religion, thinking not as important and intertwined into this. Working hard is viewed as useless there without results. Whereas in the USA you can still give yourself a pat on the back for a valiant effort that came up short. Underdog and entrepreneurialism, creativity, opportunity to succeed is clearly in the USA culture whereas in china It's in the culture to view things in such concrete black or white fashion.

And they also worry that their parents might give punishment if performance is sub-par.

With all the stress they deal with day in and day out to be the best of the best in what their external pressures define as success, probably 80percent of the chinese at my high school should or shouldve see a dermotologist for leaking acne pus.

My roommate was a 750gmat kid who came over from china in 2007, and he said in china there's some kind of saying that if you bury your head in the books you get women.

My wife has a friend on FB, who lists as her religion, "Whoever makes the most money for me"

My wife also tells me that girls who had boyfriends in high school were considered f@#kups.

You don't get women because your smart - its because they believe you will make more money. That is "love".

There are no immutable truths here. That is very useful in some situations, especially where a flexible response is required.

However in matters of integrity, it is diametrically opposed to Western ethos. It is a huge source of conflict in most companies w/ respect to conflicts of interest.

We had a guy in high school who ran XC. He was clearly doing it to put on his college apps. He would cut the course every chance he got (the coach made him go back and complete a loop once), skip workouts, never train, and never broke a sweat. His complete lack of motivation to at least TRY astounded us. Now is makes absolute sense to me. The college admissions guys want to see 2yrs of sport? OK, I'll pick the one team with no cuts and do the bare minimum.

Guess where he and his parents were from.

Ha ha ha, the misinformation in this thread is incredible. Take it from someone who has lived, studied, and worked in mainland China for over 5 years, many of you are wrong about a lot of things.

1) While the gaokao is important, you can succeed without it. The richest people in China are all entrepreneurs, just like in the US. The two richest men in China didn't even go to college.

2) China has their own form of Affirmative Action, but instead of being done by race, it is judged on by what province you are from. For instance, the max score on the test is 800, and to get into the top Universities (Beida, Qinghua, Zhejiang) you need to have the highest test scores from your province. However, the highest test score from Jiangsu province will probably be around 700, while the highest test score from Xinjiang or Tibet will be around 500. They have actually had scandals where parents move to different provinces just so there kid will have a better shot at getting into a better school.

3) They do take art and music seriously. I have traveled to the Chinese National Art Academy in Hangzhou and the students there are highly regarded by other Chinese for their dedication and skill.

4) Girls go after guys in China for the same reasons they go after guys in the US. I lived with a book worm while studying in Beijing, and trust me he and his other book worm friends were not being chased by the women.

I agree their testing system is not perfect. But when you literally have a million people every year applying to college, how else can you judge them? Even small universities in China have around 20,000 students. It would be impossible to use a system like we have in the US.

And finally, students in China, do get an extra boost in college admissions, just like in the US, if they are a good athlete, musician, debater, etc.

dashan wrote:

Take it from someone who has lived, studied, and worked in mainland China for over 5 years

*5* whole years?!

...wow....

Ah, the old Anthony Crudale approach.

asasmzcxv wrote:

In China, at least it's fair. You know what the requirements are and how to achieve them. The difference is that there are more people there who really care about getting a good education.

It's far from fair in China. China has strict laws against domestic relocation. You need a permit to move to Beijing or Shanghai. You stand a much better chance of getting in to a university within your own province. Your chances of getting into one of the best universities in either Beijing or Shanghai is very low if you are not from that province.

The consequences for your life are pretty severe - if you go to a small university in a poor rural province you will probably remain there the rest of your life. The gaokao is the one chance some young people have in their life to escape poverty. If you could see the conditions they live in you wouldn't judge them so harshly for try to cheat to get out of that.

Chucktown wrote:

Ah, the old Anthony Crudale approach.

Doesn't it make you wonder what someone did to make them leave their own country to begin with?

And for so long too...

sounds like a avoiding something, perhaps the law, perhaps child support.