The shifting of wealth

The current administration is hellbent on reallocating resources from the haves to the have-nots, conveniently forgetting that the well-being of the lower classes depends nearly entirely on the well-being of the upper classes.

___________________________________________________________

No its not "hellbent on on reallocating.....

Do you actually think we will lose our capatalistic society? If so you are a bit paranoid and probably have difficulty understanding nuance.

There are always checks and balances to a healthy society. Now its time for the checks and balances

wealth transfer wrote:

Every attempt at socialism in the history of the world has resulted in hurting those it was supposed to help, or at least minimizing the role of the offending country on the world stage, which hurts everyone in that country. I could name many many examples (Jonestown,

Jonestown?

Jonestown?!

Somehow I don't think the economic model was really high up their on their list of problems, ya know?

Jonestown was Jim Jones' attempt to renounce capitalism and create a "socialist paradise". Of course the problem was that the only people who would be interested in that are poor and uneducated, those who wanted to be on the receiving end. (Obviously no productive people wanted any part of that.) That's where socialism fails, and in the case of Jonestown, it failed spectacularly. It turned into an armed prison camp within a couple of years, and resulted in an airport shootout when a congressman came to investigate, followed by over 900 deaths within 24 hours.

Jonestown did not turn into an armed prison camp because of anything having to do with socialism. The people of Jonestown did not die because of socialism. They died because Jim Jones was a complete f***ing wacko.

Jones was a nutcase, but he wanted everyone to die so they couldn't go back to the US saying that socialism had failed.

This has to be one of the most articulately worded yet useless posts I have ever seen. I appreciate the effort that went into it but the concept that unbridled capitalism has been allowed to flourish for 200 years is patently ridiculous.

This idea should be changed to...

When left absolutely unchecked capitalism hardly generates a level playing field. Cabals, monopolies etc. are the net result of unbridled capitalism which in turn leads to the cheating of the consumer. Forget wealth allocation... this usually resembles something more akin to blatant theft.

Reform is the only tool against this behavior. By castigating dishonest business practices and promoting a fair and equitable playing field we preserve the spirit of capitalism and create an environment of 'conceivably' sustainable growth.

Over the last 20 odd years the global economy has gotten so complicated that the checks and balances needed to prevent such exploitation from happening have become obsolete.

What you have been seeing over the last few years was inevitable. The tacit assumption that the d-bags on Wallstreet actually care or have any real knowledge about what is sustainable, in your interest and in this countries interest is absolutely laughable and has played it's course.

These people aren't talented... they are either too stupid to realize that the system they work within has become a tool to extract profit for the greedy or they are smart enough to take advantage of it.

Take it from somebody who used to be pretty damn close to running the show at a very big firm... reform has been a LONG time coming. This damage can't be undone but we need a hell of a lot more oversight if we want to step away from this abyss. Forget exceptional growth, that is snake oil, we need to focus on REAL growth.

Funny how the proponents of socialism are always the ones who stand to benefit the most by screwing over the rich guy. It comes down to getting votes in poor areas every time.

Truly productive people don't believe in socialism; they are too busy changing the world to worry about being a parasite off of someone else's efforts.

Socialists are germs that attack you when you are most productive and most successful. They wait to see who the winners are and then try to (legally) steal from them. They don't think; they loot. They believe in the fixed pie instead of the expanding pie that benefits everyone. In fact, they often cause the pie to shrink, hurting themselves as well as others.

Socialism is only one step away from fascism and totalitarianism - do not forget that.

Capitalism is just as dependent on government for wealth allocation as is socialism. When a corporation goes bust the corporations debtors do not get to raid the bank account of the investors. Why? Because the law says that a shareholder's liability is limited to their investment in the corporation. If government can decide on that allocation of wealth, why can't it also decide that those who benefit from those rules must pay a few bucks to make sure that everyone gets health care? Why is the first allocation (to the shareholder) legitimate, but the second is not? And why is it legitimate that someone who only puts forth money can earn way more than the people who actually produce the goods and services, often leaving workers without enough money to buy basic necessities?

Unbridled capitalism has the best checks and balances there are - Competition. Anyone can come along and knock of Google, or Microsoft, or anyone else, it just takes massive brainpower and hard work. Look at the Dow components from 1950. Recognize more than two of them? No. Someone better came along and knocked them out, or scooped them up at a discount.

Forget about Wall Street - look at Wal-Mart. They take a lot of heat, but they offer something everyone wants (big selection, low prices). Someday they will be taken down too, by a retailer that is even more efficient, or who adds values to shoppers in other ways.

People need to harness their own brainpower and level the playing field themselves. It's only uneven if you don't think.

Don't forget Sweden as another example of a socialist dystopia.

jsquire wrote:

Don't forget Sweden as another example of a socialist dystopia.

Sweden is country full of healthy, well educated ... UNPRODUCTIVE people. I look at Sweden as one of the greatest wastes this planet has. It has achieved a social balance, but at the great expense of growth and productivity. It is a country with first rate people and third rate production. In other words, a waste.

jsquire wrote:

Don't forget Sweden as another example of a socialist dystopia.

The Swedish model has already failed.

wealth transfer wrote:

Every attempt at socialism in the history of the world has resulted in hurting those it was supposed to help

Please explain to me how stealing assets and labor from 95% of the population, at the benefit of only the minute richest and greediest, has anything to do with socialism.

As a socialist, I can tell you Obama is far from a socialist. He is doing almost nothing to make our society more equal. First you should get rid of the notion that our society is a capitalist society and that wealth inequality is good thing. The rich should have no more than 5x the amount of wealth that the poor have.

Greed does not propel society forward, ambition does.

I'm not sure you understand what socialism really is. Please crack a book for once.

What about IKEA!!

Immigrants come to this country to kick ass, because they left their old country because it sucked there. Immigrants do not come to this country to be lazy and receive handouts. They do not come here to be taken care of by a welfare state. They do not want to become dependent on the government to help them survive.

This country was founded on the premise that every man is entitled to the fruits of his labor. He can rise as far as he is willing and able. This is not the case in many other countries. This country is special for exactly that reason.

Obama may not be a pure socialist, but the citizens of this great country look with suspicion at any attempt to "balance social pressures" or "level the playing field" or "reallocate resources", or any other code phrases that hint at socialism. We have millions of immigrants each year because we don't believe in that shit. This country is an open book, one in which anyone can work hard and make millions through effort and brilliance. So when the leader of the country is talking that kind of semi-hidden socialistic language, talking about penalizing productivity and rewarding sloth, there will be great uneasiness. That is the quickest way to being a one-term president here, just ask Jimmy Carter.

As for some arbitrary 5-to-1 rule - we never would have gotten past the caveman stage like that. Even if we implemented a 100-to-1 rule, the economy would collapse. It takes wealthy people to employ the not-so-wealthy. The rich man with incentives to work hard is the key to how this country was built. You mess with the entrepreneurs, you mess with your own lives.

me no read gringo wrote:

Funny how the proponents of socialism are always the ones who stand to benefit the most by screwing over the rich guy. It comes down to getting votes in poor areas every time.

Which is why the greatest concentrations of wealth, ie most large urban centers vote overwhelmingly democratic.

What happened to all the liberal ruling class elite?

Does reality even have a glimmer of hope when it comes to these kinds of arguments?

Bingo.

me no read gringo wrote:

Funny how the proponents of socialism are always the ones who stand to benefit the most by screwing over the rich guy. It comes down to getting votes in poor areas every time.

Truly productive people don't believe in socialism; they are too busy changing the world to worry about being a parasite off of someone else's efforts.

Socialists are germs that attack you when you are most productive and most successful. They wait to see who the winners are and then try to (legally) steal from them. They don't think; they loot. They believe in the fixed pie instead of the expanding pie that benefits everyone. In fact, they often cause the pie to shrink, hurting themselves as well as others.

Socialism is only one step away from fascism and totalitarianism - do not forget that.