Making 800 guys out of 400 guys

baylor went to the early texas a&m and ran legarald betters (sp?) and he ran around 1:55 so i say you have a good lead by looking at 400 guys.

400 to 800 training wrote:

I know this is a fairly common thing that happens, but I was curious if there were any "experts" out there on the topic to learn from. I have pretty good experience working with distance guys, coaching some all-state and Footlocker finalists. However, I am working on putting some kids into the 800 meter places and some 400 guys are a great option. I've worked with some before, but I was curious if there was any key training information out there for making such a transition of a 50.x guy to becoming a 1:57 or so guy.

Thanks

A lot of guys on here will instantly just say:more miles. There is a lot for too it then that.

400m guys need aerobic work, yes, but it is better to have the aerobic work be in the form of fast repeats with breaks in between rather then easy runs or tempos. Fast twitch 400m sprinters respond better to stuff with breaks in between.

the 3 key systems that these guys need to work are aerobic conditioning (general endurance, 60-75% Vo2 max), aerobic capacity (5k pace work), and anaerobic conditioning (tempo pace work). Their anaerobic capacity is probably fine being 400m runners. Work up to 30-40 miles per week or more.

Again, 400m guys respond well to breaking the mileage up into intervals, and doing fewer easy runs at 6:00-7:30 pace like us distance runners do. Just give them enough aerobic work to get around the track twice and 50xx guys will be 1:57 guys without too much problem.

Also, make sure to maintain 100/200m speed.

thanks, that got into it a lot more like I was looking for.

These guys are coming from a background of "long stuff" being 300 meter repeats.

a 50. is better than a 1:57 i'd say, so i wouldn't mess with the 400 and try and get under 50

Hi,

The best results will be achieved by treating these types of runners very differently to the endurance based 800/1500m.

Increasing their mileage is important to build their aerobic base but most of the athletes from a 400m background will struggle with hitting a predetermined weekly mileage of 50/60/70 miles. You should base their aerobic work on sessions; rather than overall quantity. For example 1X 4omins (easy), 1 or 2 X 30mins (steady), 1X 15mins (tempo).

For the interval work I would start them off with short recoveries between short reps (e.g. 10X 400m with off 90secs, by this I mean if they run 60sec then 30sec recovery). For the longer reps I would give them longer recovery (e.g. 5X 1000m off 6mins, by this I mean if they run 3mins then 3mins recovery or more if needed). This way for the longer reps they can run them hard since they will be recovered and for the short reps they will never quite recover.

Hope this helps, I know guys that have run 47s 400m and 1:48 800m and they do loads of speed work and don’t really bother with the long miles that I tend to do. But the common trend I have found between 400/800m runners is that their aerobic conditioning is based on hard running rather than easy miles.

time guys wrote:

a 50. is better than a 1:57 i'd say, so i wouldn't mess with the 400 and try and get under 50

Gotta take the team consideration in on how many guys are capable of running the 50. compared to the sub 2 guys

400 guys respond great to big general strength/bodyweight circuits on a regular basis as a muscular endurance stimulant.

I dropped six seconds to 2:00 solely by incorporating these, I was under 15 miles a week at the time.

For more proof, check out Juantorena and Borzakovisky's training. Both do large amounts of "speed gymnasium" and "gymnastics" which are essentially tons of different bodyweight exercises.

Knives in the belly is absolutely right. Fast-twitch 800 guys respond much better aerobic work in the form of intervals rather than continuous runs.

Try this for the base

-3 easy runs per week. Start out 3-4 miles. Progress to 5-7 miles. This will be really slow, 8:00 pace at first. Follow these all with

-1-2 sprint type workouts each week. Warm-up. Do form drills (high knees, butt kicks, etc.) Sometimes do something like 3 x 20, 3 x 40, 3 x 60 at 95% with 3 minute rests. Other times try something like 10 x 100-150m up a slight hill at 80-90%).

-2 aerobic intervals days per week

Start with something as easy at 10 x 400 in 90 seconds (yes 90, make em do push-ups for going too fast) with a 100 walk/jog recovery.

Progress to a little longer and a little faster. 8 x 600 in 2:10 with 200 walk/jog. 6 x 800 in 2:50 with 200 walk/jog. 5 x 1000 in 3:30 with 200 walk/jog.

Do these workouts on hills sometimes.

time guys wrote:

Gotta take the team consideration in on how many guys are capable of running the 50. compared to the sub 2 guys

If you have guys who are enthusiastic about moving up to the 800, then you have hope. If not, you're wasting your time and their talent. Most 400 guys have no interest in the 800.

desire

knives in my belly wrote:

A lot of guys on here will instantly just say:more miles. There is a lot for too it then that.

400m guys need aerobic work, yes, but it is better to have the aerobic work be in the form of fast repeats with breaks in between rather then easy runs or tempos. Fast twitch 400m sprinters respond better to stuff with breaks in between.

400m guys are not different than marathoners when dealing with training of different muscle fibers, ST, FTa and FTb. To train ST fibers optimally you have to go easy, up to aerobic threshold. Those fast repeats will not train ST optimally. A 400m runner just can´t take as much easy mileage as a more endurance based runner can, and the pace of these runs are also a lot slower.

We had this freshman in HS, was a 50.x guy. Trained for a season to run the 800m...never got faster than 2:09.

Keep in mind that if you take a fast 400m guy and train them to be a fast 800m guy then they will likely not be a fast 400m guy anymore...

Repeat 200s, short rest

Repeat 300s, short rest

600-700m time trials

To maintain speed: 50m sprints, LONG rest (ie: walk back to start)

Alan

There is some good information in this thread. But, I think dukerdog has hit on something important. I think it is better if the guys make the choice.

Make them all run the 800 or even a mile against each other during the first week of practice. Tell them their order of finish will determine who gets first choice over what distances they race, early season, so they try hard. Then train the first few finishers like they are going to be 800 guys and the rest like 400 guys.

This will help find your 800 leaning 400 guys and train them in a way that will help their strength. This shouldn't hurt their 400s much if you keep touch with their speed. But lengthening and slowing the training of fast 400 guys, who can barely even make it 800m, will kill their speed and never do much for their 800s.

As the season goes on put the 800 leaning guys in some 800s. As they have some success, some of the 800 leaning guys will want to make the switch on their own.

They want to do it, so that isn't an issue.

Some good material is starting to come out throughout this thread. Thanks!

I didn't read all of the entries on this thred, but I think it's important for any coach to be able to run 400 guys in the 800. A good core group of quarter-milers can win any invitational. The key is indeed not to waste those fast-twitch muscle fibers. Longer, fast intervals (I believe this has been mentioned) would be much more beneficial than just more miles, or longer runs. Plyometrics and weights should be incorporated maybe twice a week if possible to maintain strength. I remember (years ago) doing 200's on the minute with one lap between sets of four...sometimes we did three sets, sometimes four or five...once a group of us felt competitive (not smart in practice) and did six sets with each fourth 200 turning into a race (most of the fourths were between 23 and 24 - this was in college)...excellent workout!

Don't endanger those muscle fibers. We've all heard this: Long slow running creates long slow runners

As a former high school/college 800m/400m runner, I can simply say that my training really different vary from one 800m to a 400m race. I was a 1:50 800m and a 47.8 400m runner. I can tell you from personal coaching experience that I had the honor of coaching(name dropping, such a dweeb) Marlon Ramsey in high school-Beaumont, Tx 1994-45.36 Fat 400m and occasionally I put him on our two mile relay and he ran splits of 1:53 easily. Now having said that, I realized a lot of 400m runners can run 800m but "heart" and talent of course plays into how well they do. I know this isn't very specific training that you were looking for, however, my own experience tells me that a guy with sub 50 speed should stick with the 400 and move up only if you see something there in talent. Taking a 48sec 400m runner just to get him to break 2:00 in the 800 isn't that impressive. If you were to say he is trying to break 1:50 in the 800,, then I will feel it's worth it.

Just my two cents...

Biggest struggle can be accepting athletes doing strength and aerobic type work at whatever level they are capable of starting at. It is very easy to give a 400m runner a relatively easy (in the coaches opinion) V02 Max type like 4 x 800 with 75-90 seconds rest workout and watch them struggle to finish or not finish. The trick is to accept the pace at which they can accomplish the workout and the increase the pace slowly (over weeks and months ) as they can tolerate it. One example was/is a 1:46 runner who could not complete 4 x 800 in 2:50 to start, about 12 months later he could run 4 x 800 in 2:24. His 800 improved from 1:48 to 1:46 during that same time frame.

Again my point is you have to start from where they are.

I am not a big fan of heart rate monitors, but they can be helpful when doing strength type work with 400/800 types to see if they are working up to capacity or dogging it. You may be surprised to see that they are working at a higher percentage of their capacity than you think.

Run&Lift wrote:

400 guys respond great to big general strength/bodyweight circuits on a regular basis as a muscular endurance stimulant.

I dropped six seconds to 2:00 solely by incorporating these, I was under 15 miles a week at the time.

For more proof, check out Juantorena and Borzakovisky's training. Both do large amounts of "speed gymnasium" and "gymnastics" which are essentially tons of different bodyweight exercises.

I seem to recall reading that Juantorena ran around 70mpw in the off season another source reported 25km/day. I am a huge proponent of "speed gymnasium" type work. But, it's no substitute for doing hard 45-60min runs...

El Caballo wrote:

Run&Lift wrote:

400 guys respond great to big general strength/bodyweight circuits on a regular basis as a muscular endurance stimulant.

I dropped six seconds to 2:00 solely by incorporating these, I was under 15 miles a week at the time.

For more proof, check out Juantorena and Borzakovisky's training. Both do large amounts of "speed gymnasium" and "gymnastics" which are essentially tons of different bodyweight exercises.

I seem to recall reading that Juantorena ran around 70mpw in the off season another source reported 25km/day. I am a huge proponent of "speed gymnasium" type work. But, it's no substitute for doing hard 45-60min runs...

Not exactly...

that is about the greatest 400/800 athlete of all time and is required reading for all 400/800 athletes and coaches