Should I trust the running store employees?

Over and under pronators often wear down the outside back of the heel first. Life is best when you are a mid-foot striker.

I underpronate and wear Mizuno Elixers. I am usually able to get 350-400 miles out of them. Wore Wave Riders in the past, and they worked out well too.

Are you trolling just to get us to attack running store workers (many of whom are college kid runners themselves) or are you serious?

"You cannot be serious":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY

No I am serious. At least around here, most of the running stores are staffed by old people -- not college students.

And to the midfoot striker above: I was talking about the wear on the front of the shoe sole.

Can I post my running form on youtube or something and get your opinions?

As a midfoot striker I highly disagree. My shoes wear down faster because there is a one square inch part of the midfoot which takes 95% of the impact and wear

Night Runner wrote:

Over and under pronators often wear down the outside back of the heel first. Life is best when you are a mid-foot striker.

Listen to the minimalist nuts. They know what's good for you.

OK, that aside - yeah, one would think that wear on the outside of the forefoot could signal you want less pronation control, not more. But I think the real answer to what shoe suits you isn't necessarily found by wet footprint tests or shoe wear or video gait analysis. I think a shoe (and shoe category) suits you if you can run hundreds of miles in it comfortably and without injury... and sometimes those other indicators are wrong.

If you're running comfortably and injury-free in your current shoe, IMO it suits you well enough regardless of wear patterns.

I was told "stability" as a new runner at multiple running stores including one set up with treadmill & camera. Got injured a lot. Neutral felt and worked better for me, and so did lightweight, and the more minimal I progressed, the less I got injured or felt close to injury.

As someone who used to work in sports retail, it's painfully obvious when I visit a store and talk to a sales clerk (usually a kid) who has no idea what they're talking about.

some guy who runs wrote:

No I am serious. At least around here, most of the running stores are staffed by old people -- not college students.

And to the midfoot striker above: I was talking about the wear on the front of the shoe sole.

Can I post my running form on youtube or something and get your opinions?

If you aren't getting hurt because of your shoes, don't change. Why create a problem where there isn't one?

First of all, there is no such thing as "under-pronation". There is Pronation, (which is more commonly referred to as neutral) over-pronation, and supination, which is exceedingly rare. A lot of people think they supinate, but they don't, and even people who are neutral pronate to a neutral position. Shoe wear is very deceptive, I wouldn't focus on it too much.

Now, should you trust the store employee? Maybe, maybe not, there are some really good ones and some who don't have the first clue what they are talking about, and most are in between. This employee, I have no idea. Personally from my experience in a store and buying running shoes for many years I feel most people tend to overcorrect. The true stability shoes are really only for extremely overweight people, and pretty much anyone with a lot of miles who is in reasonably good shape can get away with very little to zero support.

I agree with the people who say if it's not broke, don't fix it. If you have a pair of shoes that work well for you, don't stray too far. Mizuno makes fine shoes, so does nike, addidas, brooks, and maybe some other brands. Find some shoes you like, someone who works at a running store can probably help a little but their word is not the bible. Also, be wary of anyone who pushes a particular brand, personally I love nike running shoes, but when I sold shoes i knew the differences between the brands and brought what I thought an individual would like the best based off what they told me.

eojtlc wrote:

First of all, there is no such thing as "under-pronation".

Supination and underpronation are one in the same ace.

Some running stores know what they are talking about, some do not.

I had been sold stability shoes since high school, and wound up with a stress fracture in my navicular in my third year of college. I started working in a running store after i healed, and part of my training was analyzing my own gait on video. Turns out i was running neutral. Maybe that extra stability was too much...

Minimalists are not nuts - don't fight your own biomechanics. Go to a store that offers video gait analysis. It is hard for someone to feed you bull when you are staring at the same video that they are. Any good running store offers it. If none around you do, have a buddy videotape you jogging on a treadmill, and compare it to the dozens and dozens of photos/videos online of the different degrees of pronation.

If you're nervous about being put into a shoe that will give support when you don't need it, Mizuno would be a good option. The design of their stability shoes is that they only support the foot once it starts pronating to the point where support is needed. Stick with the Elixir, as it is their most mild support shoe. It's also nice and light, and is a little lower to the ground than some of the other everyday trainers.

As someone said above, those who are true supinators are rare. Most people end up being neutral, or overpronators to varying degrees.

If you're not comfortable with the staff's assessment, try to get an assessment from the owner or manager. Hopefully, they'll be the most reliable.

some guy who runs wrote:

I'm not an expert on biomechanics, but I wonder if these people know what they're talking about.

I see all over the net that if the outside of the sole is worn more than the inside, you could be underpronating. I've been prescribed stability shoes because I think that's what they tell everyone that walks through the door. I had a frustrating experience today where the saleswoman was going on about, "Oh, mizuno! this is a great shoe it has a lots of support looks here at this thing and that thing."

The minimalist nuts on here say it all the time, but have I been sold a load of BS?

Now I'm not sure on what I should be running in... is there a good test to tell? I tried the footprint thing where you check your arches. I can see about half.

I've worked at a couple of different running shoe stores over the years. Two of which have been really positive experiences and one which was not the greatest experience. At any rate the store that I currently work at has forced me to truly understand the gait cycle much more in addition to various other aspects of the body. The reason being is that the owner has his degrees in sports medicine and human anatomy while the manager has his degree in exercise science. The two of them have combined their knowledge to train each of the staff members to better serve you, the customer. While this may not be the case at all running shoe stores - which CAN be problem, it is the case at the store I work at. I say CAN be a problem because the first store I ever worked at also took a very similar approach to doing gait analysis or bio-mechanics assessments. One of those steps or approaches is that we DO NOT use a treadmill for the assessments. Their are many reasons for this:

1. The angle of the camera behind you plays a role in what you see and how you see it

2. Given that you are watching on a video screen as a result of what the camera is capturing, you only focus on one specific area, which is from calf down...possibly the knee on down to the foot.

3. Treadmills, while firm generally do flex and as a result the gait is altered as your foot goes through the entire gait cycle.

Their are other factors as well, but I'll leave it at that for now. If you'd like to read more about treadmills and video gait analysis, I'd suggest looking for a study conducted by Penn State where they conclude that video gait analysis does not work/is not as accurate as it could be. Whether you choose to believe it or not, is up to you, but given my experience and the explanation that the owner of the store has given me I feel confident in saying that video gait analysis is not as accurate as it could be.

Given #2 above, your body type and shape, more so your shape and how your legs actually enter your foot (whether your heel alignment is straight, inverted or everted, Q angle) in addition to what your foot does on contact (pigeon toe, "late stage over-pronation"), etc. play a role in what category of shoe should be pulled for the individual. While all of that plays a role, so does the shape of one's foot. Someone that needs the 1123 by New Balance should not try and squeeze their foot into a the Nike Zoom Elite...they aren't even close to the same shape and as a result they won't fit their fit properly and a result the shoe will not work in the way it was intended to work.

As far as the gait cycle itself...MOST people will actually display wear to the outside of their shoes. If you look at shoes you run in and walk in you'll probably notice that. This is actually normal as the foot is designed to be in an inverted or suppinated position as it approaches the ground. Generally from their the foot will rotate inward (pronate) and hopefully achieve what we call a neutral position, where the heel bone, ankle bone, and knee are all in alignment. At this point the foot would be completely flat/flush to the ground, and hopefully the next thing we see is toe off (propulsion). Sometimes, and in actuality (~60% of the population based on a case study my store has done) will display excessive medial motion, which is rotating past the neutral position ("over-pronation")...the foot collapsing to the inside. This group/percentage of the population will probably best be suited in a Stability shoe or a Motion Control shoe. While, the percentage we have come up with is ~60%, we have found that only a small percentage of the people that come into our store display enough motion to warrant the need of a Motion Control shoe.

The reason I use the term excessive medial motion is that their are many reasons for that movement. Sometimes it actually is over-pronation and sometimes their are other reasons for the movement, such as shifting inside the shoe or the shape of the shoe not matching the shape of the foot which causes an illusion of movement that may not actually be happening. Over-pronation technically is something that can only be seen without a shoe on your foot and as their are multiple reasons for the movement (anatomy, everted heel alignment can make it look like more motion is occurring than actually is, in addition to other points already made and some not covered)...it is for those reasons that we use the term excessive medial motion.

As far as the wet-test...that tells you what shape of shoe is going to work best for you. Not which category will work best for you. If you are going to go off of the wet-test you might as well flip a coin and pick your shoes that way. It really only tells you how high or low your arch is in addition to giving you an idea RE: the shape of your foot. The wet test does not indicate what your foot does in motion...how could it, your in a static position? This is why watching someone actually walk/run is the best way to assess someone's gait.

As far as Mizuno's or any other company (Nike, Asics, Brooks, Saucony, etc)...they ALL make GOOD shoes. The key is finding a shoe that fits your foot properly and also meets your bio-mechanical needs/does everything you want a shoe to do for you, which is to keep you in that netural position.

In short, their are plenty of good running shoe stores out there, but there are also plenty that are poor. In each of those kinds of stores, you will find people who know what they are talking about and some who do not know anything.

I'll end it there for now as that is a lot to read, and probably too much.

Wear on the outside of the heel can be a sign of over striding. Count your steps during a 20 second period. You should be around 27-30 steps on one foot per 20 seconds. If you're less than that, you are putting yourself at risk, IMO. Get comfortable with this and you may naturally strike mid-foot.

Shoe brand means almost nothing. There are some brands that have a wide variety of support so if you're brand specific, I would try all of the shoes in that brand that are running specific (except motion control, unless you have severe over-pronation problems with injuries). For instance, start with the "run of the mill" cushion shoe of a brand (ex. nike pegasus) and work your way up to support (zoom elite to structure triax to equalon). If you have a video system, great. Otherwise get someone experienced with gait analysis to watch you. A little pronation is good. But over-pronation is inefficient and slows you down (this ties into stride length, too).

Finally, fit of the shoe is almost as important as support. You want it as snug as possible, while still comfortable, for runs up to about 6 miles (you be the judge). For longer runs, you want a little bit of toe room. As far as width, you shouldn't be able to pinch up any mesh below where the bottom part of the shoe lace crosses. If there's any puckering under the bottom of the shoe lace when you tighten the shoe, get a narrow or put a second sock liner in and try that. Also, as shoes get older and more beat up, more room is created in the shoe because of the midsole breaking down. Play around with the 2nd sock liner idea or get new shoes after 400 miles (unless you have experience with wearing shoes longer than usual).

This has worked for my store, though it gets more in depth in person.

These replies are GREAT. Thanks to all!

I did not have a video analysis, so I just tried to do my own. I really cannot tell by myself what it is that I'm doing... I'll post a clip online so I can get some expert opinions. I feel that's my best chance at answering my question.

If they had a degree in physiology, biomechanics, sports medicine, etc., would they be selling shoes? Maybe there are exceptions, depending on the shoe store, or the employee, but, in general, the qualifications for selling shoes are minimal.

If you have chronic pain or injury, you should go see a doctor, preferably one who specializes in athletes with problems. I'd rather have a doctor analyze a video of my gait, than a Foot Locker salesman.

If you don't have pain or injury, you need a shoe that keeps your foot strong and flexible.

I never go to a shoe store without first doing my own research. Once you've done that, you can tell the lady, for example, that you don't want he Mizuno Wave Alchemy, or the Mizuno Wave Inspire, but the Mizuno Wave Elixir.

Post the link here.

A couple of pointers for the video- Try and film it on level with the treadmill you're running on, so you're looking straight at your heel (not above or below). Also, if you can edit at all, do a 15 second clip running at an average pace, and then paste on the end the same clip slowed down to 1/2 speed. Lastly, make sure you wear a neutral shoe when you make the video.

what bothers me the most is the wet print test

how can you tell someone's running form by the wet print test? isnt it better to actually watch the form while he/she is RUNNING???!!!???

also, who the heck has a foot skinny enough in the wetprint pictures to use NEUTRAL shoes? Shouldnt the majority of us be in NEUTRAL shoes?