FM and Saratoga Training

Part of it is due to the fact that they start em young, in jr. high at least and work em hard. They are aerobic machines with high strength to weight ratios and a monster aerobic system.

The training is a bit extreme and many break down but those that do handle it perform at a high level. As a coach myself, i have made a choice to keep the kids in it for the long term, just not willing to be as controlling and extreme as these folks. Does get hard though, it is tough losing to these big ego types, living through their kids. The FM duo is nuts.

Jr hs,

I'm assuming your from NY and consequentially jealous of programs like 'toga and FM. Not only are you very wrong about the development of both programs you also don't know sh*t about how their runners have faired after hs. With a few exceptions, the FM girls have steadily improved throughout HS. FM graduates have also been successful, Gruenewald was 62nd at Nationals this year and 14 low last spring. You'd be surprised how motivation and great coaching can compensate for the over training you think occurs. The "crazy" aris's #1 goal is running well after high school.

made it out of junior high wrote:

Jr hs,

I'm assuming your from NY and consequentially jealous of programs like 'toga and FM. Not only are you very wrong about the development of both programs you also don't know sh*t about how their runners have faired after hs. With a few exceptions, the FM girls have steadily improved throughout HS. FM graduates have also been successful, Gruenewald was 62nd at Nationals this year and 14 low last spring. You'd be surprised how motivation and great coaching can compensate for the over training you think occurs. The "crazy" aris's #1 goal is running well after high school.

Nope, you are wrong about me.

First i was speaking about the girls, I have been told directly that for some that running in that program was a horrible experience, not going into details. I know some of the toga girls have had success beyond HS, the big 4 were all at nationals this year, although two of them were only at Toga for 3 years or less (davidson, lane) so they weren't part of the early stuff, Blood quit midway through her jr year due to injury issues and concern for her future, ferguson made it all the way through and is still going but at about the sam elevl as in HS.

Don't recall any big collegeiate success for the FM girls, I'm sure you will correct me there with the one or two exceptions.

As far as Tom G., not sure that 62nd at this stage of his career after what he did in HS is much of an improvement, where is the rest of that team?

I am not at all jealous of those teams, I have made a choice and sleep well at night because of that choice. I have formed my opinion more on what I've seen and heard from other coaches and some former runners of both programs, the truth might lie somewhere in the middle so I'll stop here and leave it at that.

But, i wouldn't let my HS aged kid run for either of those programs, just my opinion, we don't have to agree.

FM girls?

Talked to a recruit and she mentioned 70 minute runs on easy days, and 2-3 workouts a week. 50-60 minute runs the day before races. Two-a-days a few times a week, including on race day. She didn't know the exact mileage she was running per week, but it sounded like somewhere in the 70-80 range.

I know its not incredibly specific, but these are exact words.

Also to specify, she loved the coaches, program, and her teammates. After talking with the athlete I saw a very supportive, loyal, human side to the FM team. They're not the cold hearted machines that some internet personalites make them out to be. They're just good old fashioned hard working kids who want to be the best they can.

If anyone is to blame for "lack of collegiate success", it should be their college coaches who fail to adapt their training plans for kids who are already training at such a high level.

Both of these programs are legendary for years of high school success. But collegiate? Not as much.

As far as the 'Toga girls? The most successful at the college level (Blood, Kenah back in the day) did not spend 4 years in the program. And of course, they've had some very notable wunderkinds who went on to underperform on a college level. (Erin Davis, Danielle Coon, the Kearns sisters....) That said, its nice to see that the big four from '04 were all at NCAAs this year.

F-M? I can think of only one name in the past 15 years that made it through four years of college running: Allison Mann. She was a product of the Jerry Smith era at F-M prior to Aris taking over. They were hard working then (mid 90s) and had a deep enough team to sit their top 5 out at dual meets. (Before that, Kathy Mills had some legendary success. One of the first great female high school runners prior to Kinney/Footlocker) I can think of a couple of F-M girls that went on to try DI (Cory Roos in the late 90s and Hannah Davidson a couple years ago) who either did not make it in the DI program or seriously underperformed.

Correction:

That last name should have been Brittney Crawford from F-M who ran for Davidson college.

By the by, just googled former F-M and Davidson runner Brittnay Crawford and found her here:

http://www.bustedcoverage.com/?p=3228

Clearly, she doesn't run anymore. And that sure as hell looks like her:

http://www.tullyrunners.com/OutDoor03/RomeGirls.htm

If you look, there is plenty of info out there on Saratoga's training. As someone outside their state, I find characterizations of their actual 'training' as extreme somewhat confusing. I can't speak to 'controlling' - NY and Saratoga people would have more insight into this - but the training seems simple and straightforward. Honestly, I can think of a lot of HS programs that seem to work their kids far harder. These guys come to mind, for example:

http://albertcaruana.blogspot.com/2008/07/catching-up-with-saugus-coach-rene.html

Saratoga's key seems to be consistency. They repeat the same basic workouts - 5x1k (1-3 min rest, sometimes with 4x200), 8-9x400 (1-2 min rest), and occasionally 6x800 - throughout xc, indoor, and outdoor. Their "tempo runs" - 3 or 4 miles, often with 4x200 before, or 2x2miles - are less than 70% of their mile PR, if Nicole Blood was any indicator. That's a recovery day where I come from, and a pretty easy one. The long run seems to be around 8-9 miles (60-70 min), maybe up to 10.5 miles for older/better kids. Total mileage of maybe 40-45 a week.

http://www.dyestat.com/training/blood1.htm

Again, what these guys seem to do is stay very, very consistent.

Whenever this comes up (York for the men), you have to remember almost no schools produce significant number of top college runners. In HS you can out train your competition (17:30 guy running 35 mpw might be a 16:00 guy at 70 for example). That doesn't happen in college. Sure they are not going to improve as much in college as the person that was only running 35 mpw.

Observing wrote:

Both of these programs are legendary for years of high school success. But collegiate? Not as much.

Dear jr. hs,

I feel I should share with you the humor I find in your post. The fact that you can make statements that imply Coach Bill and John Aris do not care about their athletes post- high school reflects the blinders you must be wearing, put there by your jealous, sorry, I mean well rested mind.

I could easily write you a 2,000 word essay on how wrong you indeed are. It would be an elaborate, yet dumbed-down (as necessary) essay on how Coach Bill and John Aris have cared for me as much as my own parents, and then some. How they have spent hours, upon days, upon weeks, upon years caring about not only my running, but my life in general. How they would NEVER wish me to burn out for their own personal gain. Alumni runners have come back in tears explaining to us how crucial it is that my team and I take full advantage of what we have here at FM, because we will never find it anywhere else. They are athletes who have gone on to run in college, only to find the disapointment, but reality, that there are no two greater, and more unique coaches than Bill and John Aris. And it is truly unfortunate your kids will never get to experience them.

Calling my coaches "controlling" and "extreme" may be adjectives used to describe them from a far, unknowing outsider like yourself. Judging by your opinions, I, an outsider of your running program, may call you "creme puffed" or "narrow minded", but I won't go posting my opinion on the internet. See that's called character, something I learned from my "big ego type" coaches.

Honestly, it is unfair for me to expect you to comprehend what it is like to be a part of this running program. It is far to physically and emotionally complex for the normal athlete or coach like yourself. See, none of us here are normal, and that's what makes this program, this family, this lifestyle, what it is. Normal has nothing to do with it.

You will never understand my coaches or what they have built, just like I'll never understand your audacity to make comments about people and programs you know nothing of.

There is much more I wish to share with you so you could get even a glimpse of how utterly wonderful these two men are and how much they have positively impacted my life, my teammates lives, and several others, but it's not something I can translate through a keyboard.

And don't mistake my honest response to your post a reflection of Bill or John Aris. They would much rather have us stay off any of these forums to avoid reading crap like yours. But what can I say? Narrowminded creme-puffs make me laugh.

-Hannah Luber (because I have the balls to sign my actual name)

P.S- Let me know if you want that essay.

From Nicole Blood's log, per the DyeStat link:

Sun: 8-9 easy long run

M: 8-10x400's @ 70, 1-2 min rest

T: 4x200 all out, 1 min rest + 3 mile tempo

W: 5x1000, 1 min rest @ 3:20...that's 5:20 mile pace + 4x200, 3 min rest

R: 2x2 mi, no pace listed

F: 4.5 easy

Sat: Race. She'd often triple.

M: tough, T: tempo, W: cruise intervals, T: long intervals, Sat: racing. That's 5 quality days, four of which are back to back with not a lot of recovery. On a week with 2 meets she'd run 3-4 events in the dual meet, sometimes all out, sometimes for points and then triple in a weekend invitational. Why would the Kranicks make such a dumb schedule?

I am a runner on the Fayetteville-Manlius cross country squad and I will say that nothing we do is out of reason or "nuts" as you have put it. I find your aggressive stance towards the F-M and Saratoga insulting not only to the programs but to the alumni. Keep in mind that many F-M runners from the national championship winning teams have either yet to graduate or have only recent begun their collegiate careers. A 62nd at NCAA Nationals is a significant accomplishment and I find your belittlement of Gruenewald's performance ridiculous considering few do that well. As for the other runners from the '04 and '05 guys teams, they have competed admirably with commendable results. Injuries are bound to happen in all runners, you can look to professionals to affirm that.

As for my coaches I can certainly say that they have helped me to develop a passion for running and has given me a bond to several guys that will never be broken. Our program is process oriented thereby creating strong teams who succeed because they run for each other.

M. McGurrin

Excellent post. jr. hs, you have no basis for what you say and I think this post, coming from one of the team's tops runners, gets the point across perfectly.

Good luck at NXN FM (and Saratoga)!

How are some of the graduated FM runners doing in college now?

When you signed your contract to live the stotan lifestyle was defending part of the deal?

it has gotten to this point? srsly?

FM is good because the coach has the knowledge of a college coach, has a big school w/ talent, and gets runners from other sports because all the girls want to be part of the tradition. Leave the 15-18 yr olds alone. They don't need to be reading this stuff (and responding to it). Although I would be interested in that essay.

I think the big question for coaching young female distance runners with talent is the balance between developing them for short term success versus long term development.

A lot of high schoolers are concentrating on one sport way too early in my opinion.

Please don't attack me for this. Also let me preface it by saying that I don't know the specifics of either of these programs trainings and the only thing that I really see is the info on blood.

With that I do believe that many high school teams train athletes anaerobic systems entirely too much before the athlete is fully developed. In high school athletes need to be running a lot of base work so that they can have strong aerobic systems. This means for most of the year tempo runs and a few other things. Looking at Blood's workouts it definitely appears that she was running a decent number of hard days a week, 4 or 5. One school that I have seen more of is York which I definitely believe train too hard.

With that note I don't know why high school coaches train their athletes so hard so early. I do believe that they care about them (otherwise they wouldn't spend the countless hours doing the job) but at the same time it doesn't seem like they are setting them up for long term success.

Also I do realize that statistically it is very unlikely for a lot of "world beaters" to come from one high school. My concern is that many of these top athletes don't appear to improve over their college careers due to overwork they receive in high school.

So to hs coach I see where you are coming from and as a hs coach myself I set my athletes up for long term success after high school. Does this mean we win state every year, not always but it does mean that I sleep well at night knowing I have done what is best for long term success. Another note here is that this has nothing to do with a coach caring for their athlete. I am sure that all coaches who are willing to spend the countless hours with their athletes for little pay care for them.

I'll say it again because of the number of "college success" comments circulating...

What the FM/Saratoga/York teams are doing is absolutely not "extreme" or "nuts"... its simply the smart high level training that should be expected of kids who want to be the best they can be. Look at the training of high school aged kids in Kenya for example. Lots of workouts and volume even at an early age... thats one of the many reasons why they have an advantage over other countries.

I can guarantee you that if these exceptional kids were allowed to continue training under their coaches for the 4 years they're in college, they would continue to dominate. In fact, I'd bet that if the current FM team was coached by the Aris' for another 4 years they would easily be one of the (if not the #1) best teams in the NCAA.

I'll spell it out easily for you. The college coaches are to blame for any "burnout" or "lack of success" in college. They need to know going in that these athletes are successful for a reason, and they need to get to know the athletes (and every detail of their past training) as well as their caring high school coaches did. They need to continue to build on the 4 years of hard work and motivated training that the athlete's HS coaches put underneath them. I think a lot of college coaches who recruit these athletes from great HS programs think that it would be smart to "undertrain" them to "yield the success" of their previous training, when in reality they need to continue to build volume and intensity while teaching the basics of BETTER RECOVERY to help these athletes to success.

One of the reasons so many foreign athletes continue to improve beyond their adolescent years is because they KEEP THE SAME COACH FOR THE DURATION OF THEIR ATHLETIC CAREER. That coach knows the athlete inside out, and vice versa. The coach is in charge of the ahlete's development from a very young age, and is training them for the LONG TERM.

However, a systematic flaw with the US system is that you change coaches about every 4 years. In high school, its great to want your kids to have success at the HS level and at the college level as well, but look at it from a coaches perspective: You have an athlete for 4 years only. Every kid is sucked into the expectation that going into the NCAA and then going and getting a pro coach is the only way to get better. Labeling successful HS coaches as "big ego" is absolutely ridiculous. Put yourself in their situation. You have 4 years to make these kids the absolute BEST they CAN be. After that, you'll probably never coach them ever again. Wouldn't you train them as hard, but also as smart as you possibly could? For FM, the focus is XC, and I dont think anyone with a regular IQ can come on here and argue with how well the Aris' have trained their athletes to be the best they can be WHEN IT COUNTS.

What the FM/Saratoga athletes have is very special, and as a former athlete of a very successful Northeast HS program I can tell you first hand how hard it is to continue success after changing coaches/programs. Do some kids continue to have success after transitioning from a successful HS team to a successful D1/NCAA school? Of course. Absolutely. I'm not disputing that. Chris Derrick is a great example of that. However, I'll point out again how hard it is to continue success when many NCAA coaches have a different agenda. Its very difficult to judge which coaches really care about the athlete's continued success, and which ones are just great BS artist recruiters (my former college coach, for example) who are solely in it for money and ego boosting. I'll reiterate that if the athletes were to continue training under their HS coaches I think many of you doubters would be surprised how successful they would continue to be.

Again, the Kranick's/Aris' of the world are not at fault here. They are loving, supportive, successful coaches who know the sport inside out and want nothing more than to see their athletes happy and successful at the end of the day.

The U.S. NEEDS more coaches like this!!! (the world does too, for that matter)

I understand how from an outside perspective it would seem that these coaches are cold-hearted-slave-driving-wild-dictators who live through the successes of their athletes and want nothing more than to stroke their ego's every time NXN rolls around... but that is simply an erroneous fantasy that uninformed, jealous people like "jr.hs" make up to make themselves feel better about the fact that their teams get ripped on every fall.

If anything, you shold be criticizing the money hungry college coaches who sacrifice caring about their athletes over taking pressure from their AD's to get kids to the conference meet. Very few coaches in this country have it down, even if you see them as having success (superficially, that is).

So, to the Aris', Kranick's, Joe Newtons of the world, I commend you for making your athletes the best they can be. If people only understood your superior coaching ability and love of the sport and your athletes, you'd be getting a lot less flak. At the end of the day, there are always going to be haters... Get your kids set up with the college coaches who really care to ensure future success!!!