I have read conflicting things about tempo work and im trying to get my high school boys ready. What pace should their tempos be at this point in the season? I have seen the Daniel's chart and I have seen the Salazar tempo method which is faster. Now I am confused. How fast and how far should these tempo workouts be right now for 5k high school kids that run 16:00.
I find it interesting that Daniels says a tempo should be 20 mins long? I know from running in NCAA DI School that many coach's now believe in long tempo's like 10 mile tempo. Any thoughts?
I also read recently that the Kenyans do over race distance at tempo pace to prepare. So for a 10 they run 12 - 14km at tempo pace.
To most coaches, athletes still believe in 20min tempo's and if so they are surely a mini third session in a week not one of the main workouts.
(this is aimed at 5km-10km runners - I know marathon runners have it different)
If someone training for a Marathon does 24 miles at 90% of Marathon pace, is that a tempo run?
If someone training for a 1500m race does 1000m at their target race pace, is that a tempo run?
Does it have to be 20 minutes at the mysterious 'lactate threshold'?
truthfully it depends on the sort of work they've done to this point. Salazar will never be confused with a rocket scientist but he realizes he is working with well conditioned athletes who need to press quality for further adaptation (that and stay in one piece). Daniels didn't quite pull the 20' thing out of his bum but it was politely speaking, more or less an arbitrary figure. of course you can use other tempo paces and durations and get adaptations. now if your 16' runner lacks speed (say just 58 400m speed), tempo work will be hiding out a bit from what he actually needs. he'd probably be better off running long sets to edge up the overall quality of his volume. if he has good 400m/800m/1500m capability but lacks on maintaining paces, you have to find a way to prepare where he can have success in the workout but also recognize that the standard approaches may need to go out the window.
short answer: 520-600/mi 2-7 miles, distance > as tempo speed drops off. you'll know you have it right when the kid enjoys it, and gains confidence and capability.
tempo runs from 4-8 miles at marathon pace can be a good workout. i dont run in hs or competetively anymore, just for fun but this summer i was in around 16:30 shape and ran tempo runs at these paces and thought they helped a lot:
4 miles: 27 minutes
5 miles: 32 minutes
6 miles: 39 minutes
7 miles: 45:30 minutes
they were definitly a workout but weren't so tough that i felt like i was really straining to hit them
I was a 14.10 guy in college and found that I would have benefitted more from slowing down and going longer. Our tempos were usually around 4 miles and very rarely stayed on pace. We'd usually start out in about 4.40 then 5.05-5.15 for the rest. I think I would have developed more aerobically had I gone something like 6 miles at 5.05-5.10 pace. We were always unable to because we ran way too hard for bragging rights. For high school 16 min 5k guy, I'd say 5miles at 5.30 pace would be a pretty solid workout.
Going faster can have its benefits but I think thats more into the track season. My favorite workout was always 4 miles at fast but even pace, then full recovery and 4-6x400 at 800m race pace, jog lap full recovery.
Tempomogo wrote:
I find it interesting that Daniels says a tempo should be 20 mins long? I know from running in NCAA DI School that many coach's now believe in long tempo's like 10 mile tempo. Any thoughts?
I also read recently that the Kenyans do over race distance at tempo pace to prepare. So for a 10 they run 12 - 14km at tempo pace.
To most coaches, athletes still believe in 20min tempo's and if so they are surely a mini third session in a week not one of the main workouts.
(this is aimed at 5km-10km runners - I know marathon runners have it different)
In Daniels first book (which I no longer own) I seem to recall he spoke of THRESHOLD runs being 20-25 minutes. Occasionally he used the word "tempo" for this but I don't think he was using the term as generally as it is usually used.
In subsequent editions he has recognized that the term "tempo" refers to a broader range of paces, depending upon the pace. He gives guidance about longer tempo runs and adjusting the pace.
To me, "tempo" refers to just about any pace between what Daniels would call threshold pace and marathon pace. I do any run with a section at that pace and I call it a tempo run.
"In subsequent editions he has recognized that the term "tempo" refers to a broader range of paces, depending upon the DISTANCE"
(corrected that sentence from my previous post to make a little more sense)
Average_Joe wrote:
To me, "tempo" refers to just about any pace between what Daniels would call threshold pace and marathon pace. I do any run with a section at that pace and I call it a tempo run.
Then why not also apply it to faster paces too?
The common tempo workouts are20-30 min at hm pace40-60 min at marathon pacefor a 5k and under guy, I favor the 20-30 but that does vary a bit by runner. Throw in 4x400 at 1600 pace at the end (decent rest. Your working on turn over not buffering) and you can get in pretty good XC shape.
Coach Vick wrote:
I have read conflicting things about tempo work and im trying to get my high school boys ready. What pace should their tempos be at this point in the season? I have seen the Daniel's chart and I have seen the Salazar tempo method which is faster. Now I am confused. How fast and how far should these tempo workouts be right now for 5k high school kids that run 16:00.
wellnow wrote:
Average_Joe wrote:To me, "tempo" refers to just about any pace between what Daniels would call threshold pace and marathon pace. I do any run with a section at that pace and I call it a tempo run.
Then why not also apply it to faster paces too?
I do. One of my female runners ran the steeple in this year´s WC. When we start the winter buildup she runs 3k tempo runs at a hard but not all out pace (I never give specific paces for tempo runs. Specific paces are for track work). In March she is generally able to run 3x3 km at the same pace. We do this on Wednesdays. On Mondays we do stuff like 3-and 4-minute repeats on the road. On Fridays we do track work and long runs on Saturdays. The rest of the days are easy mileage. Everything is centered around being able to run longer and more relaxed at fast paces. If I told her to do 16 km tempo runs she would tell me I was nuts. My marathoners (one ran in Osaka 2007)
do long tempo runs. Again I tell them to run fast but controlled (no specific paces).
Disclaimer: Not a coach
For me, Tempo = comfortably & controlled hard pace
Pace can vary. Currently training towards a 10k (currently 32 min runner) so working up to 40 mins @ 5:20-25 pace. Going beyond the race time seems to make the race feel easier.
For HS shooting for 5k, I'd work up to 25 - 30 mins at a good clip. Your 16:00 kid should be able to scoot along at 5:40's for the duration.
Weird reading about some on here that say they tempo'd nearly a PR. That seems to be racing to me?
Cheers
wellnow wrote:
Average_Joe wrote:To me, "tempo" refers to just about any pace between what Daniels would call threshold pace and marathon pace. I do any run with a section at that pace and I call it a tempo run.
Then why not also apply it to faster paces too?
Faster paces I call simple speed.
Tempo workouts are longer efforts. Daniels calls tempo pace "comfortably hard" and I agree.
I don't see the point in doing a 20 minute tempo for 5k runners. You are already doing that approximate distance in the races. As someone said before, a longer tempo may be more beneficial. For a 16 minute 5k, I think 5:45-5:50 for a 5 miler would be a good workout. If you wanted to train at race pace, try 5X4 minutes with the goal of going just a little farther on each one.
A tempo is whatever pace you can hold for an hour.
Let's say I ran a 10 miler in 60 minutes all out, well then I would do shorter tempos of 4-5 at 6 minute pace.
The difference betweeen 20 mins at 5:30 pace and 28:45min at 5:45 is minimal. Of course this either or stuff is a load of crap. Do them both. Do 20-30min fast tempo runs and then do 40-60 slower tempo runs. Hell most of the research shows that 10 min repeats at 10k pace are a great way to promote aerobic fitness.
ripvanracer wrote:
I don't see the point in doing a 20 minute tempo for 5k runners. You are already doing that approximate distance in the races. As someone said before, a longer tempo may be more beneficial. For a 16 minute 5k, I think 5:45-5:50 for a 5 miler would be a good workout. If you wanted to train at race pace, try 5X4 minutes with the goal of going just a little farther on each one.
The definition of Tempo varies from coach to coach. In general it is a continuous run done at a faster than easy pace.
In my training schedules (but others may vary) there are 2 types of tempo runs.
Lactate Threshold Tempo Run - this is done at 89-91% of vVO2 max pace. For your 16:00 5k guys this equates out to 5:31 to 5:38 per mile for between 3 and 6 miles (depending on weekly mileage).
Aerobic Threshold Tempo Runs - this is done at 85-87% of vVO2 Max pace. For your 16:00 5k guys this would equate out to 5:46 to 5:54 per mile for between 6 and 10 miles (depending on weekly mileage).
Wellnow mentioned long runs at about 90-95% of marathon pace. For whatever reason I call these steady state runs in my training schedules but surely some coaches may refer to these as tempo run.
I always think of "tempo" as a synonym for "rhythm". Seems easier to tell your kids to find a good rhythm they can maintain.
To help understand the many kinds of "tempo", I find McMillan's description of "Stamina Workouts" useful:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training4.htm
Using his calculator will give you appropriate training pace ranges:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm