Why are 1500m runners so dumb?

because part of being a middle distance runner is believing you have more "footspeed" than everybody else, including other middle distance runners.

They're just lucky Butzler wasn't in there...incredible footspeed.

No. Stephen Pifer got the guys in his heat to qualify. And he still made top 2.

The guys that qualified on time did nothing better than the runners in the other heats. They were just luckier.

Had Pifer been in any other heat, that heat would have had 6 qualifiers.

Heat 3 had bad luck when Fernandez did not start. That almost cost Webb a spot in the finals.

But I do agree that Webb should not have gone out in 2:04 and given himself .05s of breathing room in the end.

The strategy in a 1500 is to get in on place. Unless you are clearly better that the others and can lead without rabbitting you forget about pace and work on position.

Bad coaching. I saw those races going on and wondered why a mid packer didn't take the pace out. It seemed so obvious. Everyone knows the relative standard to make, so do it!

Prisoner's Dilemma - no one wants to sacrifice themselves to help the group.

the 2nd and 6th posts on this thread are both correct.

True...but. You need fast heats if you want to qualify by time; anyone should realize that, in this instance, if the first two heats are slow, you are handing the rest of the Q times to the last heat. The number of runners in the 1500 had little to do with it. The Brojos should know that.

So it is tougher to have to run in heat 1 or 2. You simply can't take a chance on the other heats being slower. you have to take it out for time.

This has happened quite a few times, slow first heats and the athletes in the last heat laugh all the way around the track as they make the qualifying time for the final.

"Why are 1500m runners so dumb?"

No brain, no pain...

This is what NCAA running has drilled into them. These tactics along with their schedule has help prevent any American 1500 meter runner from winning an Olympic gold since 1908.

Ncaa running has drilled this into them? Wtf? Did you watch the olympics last year? Have you ever watched a world championship? Try it! They go out slowly and roll at the end. This event is about tactics when talent and fitness are close. Pull your f***ing head out of your ass.

Many of the people are basically right on the money but let me give an in-depth answer.

The prisoner's dilemma is the best answer. No one wants to sacrifice themselves to help the group is correct. These guys simply aren't used to leading races period. The entire world and US system is based on chasing marks in rabbitted races. Thus no one is used to leading anything of note.

IF they lead, they are likely to be the sacrificial lamb. Thus there is no incentive for even a mid-packer to take it out. If a mid-packer takes it out, he's likely just helping some other mid-packer in his heat make the final.

So you sit in the back, try to save energy and time your kick perfectly and get lucky. Andrew Jesien did this perfectly and is now in the final when he didn't even make the NCAA final

Now Stephen Pifer did take it out and he did qualify automatically. Why is that? Because he has experience and likes leading. He is used to it.

It's like Tevan Everett in the 800. I interviewed him last night after the 800 and he said he was trying to learn in that heat how to run with the pack but he hated it. He said it used up more energy. I nearly fell over as everyone else in the world hates leading anything.

But if you aren't used to it, it can be a disaster. Trust me, I know.

There also is the thought that if you take it out you might make the final but be wearing yourself out for the final.

When I was coaching Jimmy WYner at NCAA regionals this year,

I looked at the heat sheets and thought "It's very likely he gets 4th in his heat if they sit and kick." Only the top 3 automaticaly advanced. I was also 95% sure that if he took it out in 1:59 that he'd get in on time.

Did I tell him to take it out? No I didn't. And for years, I've railed on coaches that let their athletes sit and kick.

Why did I do this? Well I thought he'd win the battle and lose the war. I thought he'd make the final but have nothing left for that. Physically and mentally he hates leading.

Two weeks prior to regionals, I made him lead his heat for like the first 1300 of the 1500 as he needed the regional time thanks to the now infamous DQ at Heps. Everyone in the field used his perfect rabbitting to his advantage and just blew by him with 200 to go. Like Pifer he was able to rally at the end and get in there automatically but it was a big effort for him.

He was spent for the final and ran awfully.

Look at the NCAA finals this year. In heat 1,

Emmanuel and McCarthy had a plan to share the lead. THey went through the 1200 in 2:55. McCarthy, the east regional camp, barely had enough in the tank to get the final 300. In the final, what did he do? DFL.

It was also interesting to note that while Emmanuel did well in the final (3rd) the other guys in heat one that all ran fast in the prelim (339), Bolas , abbot, miller all didnt do great in the fijnal as they were like 7-8-9.

Sure they should be stronger but I'm pointing out that you might get in the final and have little left.

Now let's take a look at something the OP wrote:

Your thinking here represents a fundamental misunderstanding of track and field. It's not your fault as the track world is currently set up to believe that a faster time is a superior time but that's not necessarily the case.

The guys who got in on time in heat 4 didn't do anything better than the guys in heat 1. There is no arguing that. They ran a tiny bit faster off a way faster pace. They did none of the work - Pifer did it all.

If there was a "Beyer speed rating" for track and field, they'd deserve way slower ratings tahn the guys in the first heat.

I agree. with two days to recover between heats they should ALL be running balls to the wall like Pfifer.

The number of 1500 runners qualified was the biggest issue in the 1500. If they had 3 heats then there would be 3Q and 3q. Which puts less emphasis on time, and more on place. The huge size forced a 4th heat, which put them into the position of going 3Q or 2Q and 4q. They could have changed the rules and gone 3Q + 2q for a 14 man final or something like that.

Brojos were right, the 1500 is a race that should be determined by place. When you have seed times and heats that aren't random, I see no reason why you need that many time qualifiers, the speed of the race is dictated by one person in the field, if this guy goes hard, then the rest benefit.

rojo wrote:

But if you aren't used to it, it can be a disaster. Trust me, I know.

The answer is to get used to it, not to sit in the back and twiddle your thumbs.

How about this:

If they bring 52 people, let the top 16 get a bye to the second round and run a prelim to qualify 8 of the remaining 36 to get to the semis.

3 heats- 2Q's and 2q's

24 man semifinal of 2 heats

rojo wrote:

They did none of the work - Pifer did it all.

Mainly, I agree with your post, but NONE of the work? Pifer didn't pick them up and carry them to the last lap. They had to run to get there.

Drafting is overrated in running. Leading or following is not that big of deal. It is a mental thing that too many runners have that they think they are spending more energy leading. If it is REALLY windy than yes, but in a light wind it matters ZERO. It's all in the head.

I still think USATF should have made it three rounds though.

kalamarib wrote:

Prisoner\'s Dilemma - no one wants to sacrifice themselves to help the group.

Another element of game theory that comes in to play is that whoever goes last (e.g. Heat 4) has the significant advantage of knowing how fast all the earlier heats ran. They didn\'t do anything to gain this advantage. They were just lucky to be assigned to the last heat. In the sprints this doesn\'t matter much since they races aren\'t as tactical. And even in the 1500 it frequently doesn\'t matter. Sometimes even when the last heat knows that all they have to do is go out fast to get all the time qualifiers, they don\'t because of the Prisoner\'s Dilemma and wanting to save their energy for later rounds.

We keep talking about saving your energy for later rounds. First you have to qualify for later rounds and other than the first two no one in the slow rounds qualified for the final. Rojo suggests that run fast and you are worn out for the final, others suggest that run slower and you won't qualilfy for the final. Both are partly right and that is the dilemma. Fortunately talent, conditioning and heart rise to the top (usually).

And that is why we endlessly love to talk race tactics. A coach can teach tactics at the HS or NCAA level; by the time an athlete reaches the pros he is pretty much on his own because the field is packed with talent and equally savvy runners; each race can be significantly different.