German takes it from start to finish in the 1500M. Hall does it all the time. Webb's most successful years & races have him doing it. Gabe grabbed the lead early in his best races. El G grabbed the lead soon as the rabbits dropped.
When you're the most fit & gun-to-tape fastest guy in a race, and don't necessarily have the best finish of the competitors... and still you DON'T lead it early with a tough pace, then 90% of the time, you're a wimp.
Agreed. It's just a more admirable way of racing and it's more interesting to the fans in general.
German deserves respect for this.
ttc wrote:
When you're the most fit & gun-to-tape fastest guy in a race, and don't necessarily have the best finish of the competitors... and still you DON'T lead it early with a tough pace, then 90% of the time, you're a wimp.
But when you're not the clear-cut fastest guy, running from the front is like wearing a uniform which on the back says:
"KICK ME"
Runing from the front against Lagat is not likely to be a successful strategy.
Coach D wrote:
Runing from the front against Lagat is not likely to be a successful strategy.
Is running from behind against Lagat likely to be successful?
leaping lanny wrote:
Coach D wrote:Runing from the front against Lagat is not likely to be a successful strategy.
Is running from behind against Lagat likely to be successful?
exactly. When a guy is just superior to you in every way, there is NO successful strategy against him.
But when runners are fairly equal, it best to use your strong points to your advantage. German's strong point was his endurance and ability to hold a hard pace for a long time. So he worked that instead of waiting for a kicker's race that would not best to his advantage.
ttc wrote:
Webb's most successful years & races have him doing it.
you mean like in osaka when he went right to the front and got his ass beat?
and winning from the front won all those gold medals for pre also....helped chalenga and forrest the other night too
The usual trolls in a circlejerk, big deal. Leading a race and winning it is rare. It only works when the runner is clearly a superior athlete.
I've always run my best pace for any race, invariably always beat runners who are just as good and quite a few times beat runners who should be much faster.
Vladamir Kuts wrote an excellent article about "the record tactic" of racing, in "Run, Run, Run" by Fred Wilt. He describes going to the line against another Russian (before Kuts reached the top ranks) who was much better than him timewise and had many superior performances. Kuts was surprised when the other runner tucked in behind, content to rely on his kick. However by then Kuts had stolen the race, in another personal best time and achieved the championship standard.
Kuts' feeling is that the record tactic is the most progressive and best tactic for racing, that the competitive tactic might win a string of low key races but is not progressive and is likely to fail in top competition. It is notable that most all of the top runners have utilized the record tactic for their races.
Vladamir Kuts, Peter Bolotnikov, Ron Clarke, Gerry Lindgren, Herb Elliot, John Landy, Gaston Roelants, Buddy Edelen, Derek Clayton, Abebe Bikila, Morceli, El G, Carlos Lopes, Steve Jones, Komen, Tergat, Geb, Bekele, Shaheen, Wanjiru ....
uh_no wrote:
ttc wrote:Webb's most successful years & races have him doing it.
you mean like in osaka when he went right to the front and got his ass beat?
and winning from the front won all those gold medals for pre also....helped chalenga and forrest the other night too
It's the best strategy if you're clearly the best runner in the field, especially in a short race like the 1500 or 800. Pre, Chelanga and Forrest had no chance of winning their respective races no matter what they did. Nevertheless, I thought all three that you mentioned ran about as well as they could have in those races. If Bekele ran in Athens the way he ran in Beijing in the 5k, there's a good chance he would have 2 5k golds instead of gold and silver.
Going to the lead doesn't necessarily mean pushing the pace. Having the lead when you know how to control the pace can make the race work to your advantage. Bob Parks taught Paul McMullen to go the front and slow the pace down, turning it into a kicker's race. This worked to his advantage against the likes of Steve Holman, who was his superior in a fast race.
Fernandez led throughout the race, but he didn't start hammering until about 600 to go. As I recall, the first two splits were 60 and 2:00. Not exactly heroic, but it allowed him to control the race.
Geena Gall also led wire-to-wire (well, from 600 on). According to her interview, she and her coach had settled on that as a plan. With 3 rounds of the 800, that is a gutsy call. Talk about an athlete with confidence. Her PR was 2:02, and there were a host of 2:02-2:04 types in the race. I was impressed.
Any opinion on whether she will be a factor at USATF champs?
leaping lanny wrote:
Coach D wrote:Runing from the front against Lagat is not likely to be a successful strategy.
Is running from behind against Lagat likely to be successful?
It was for El Guerrouj. Look at the video of El G's gold medal. Lagat mistimed his kick (started too early), which allowed El_G to come back on Lagat in the last 50m to win (in my opinion, one of the greatest races of all time).
Without the mistimed kick (RUNNING FROM THE FRONT) by Lagat, El Guerrouj might well have gone down in history as the greatest athlete never to win an Olympic Gold medal.
So since sitting and kicking worked for El G, that means it'll work for Teg, Solinsky, Manzano, and Webb against Lagat?
ttc wrote:
German takes it from start to finish in the 1500M. Hall does it all the time. Webb's most successful years & races have him doing it. Gabe grabbed the lead early in his best races. El G grabbed the lead soon as the rabbits dropped.
When you're the most fit & gun-to-tape fastest guy in a race, and don't necessarily have the best finish of the competitors... and still you DON'T lead it early with a tough pace, then 90% of the time, you're a wimp.
Easy to do win you are that much better than the rest of the field. There is no runner in the NCAA that is within Fernandez's talent or range.
The NCAA are beneath him. He needs to move on to bigger and better things.
your right. There is no one better than German, just the runners who have gone faster than him. Thats all.
Maybe I missed this, but, isn't Rupp the complete opposite (but equally valid) proof point here?
you're.
he
That's
Brilliant analysis.
flabbytabby wrote:
Maybe I missed this, but, isn't Rupp the complete opposite (but equally valid) proof point here?
Do you think Rupp used those tactics because he thought it was the best way to win, or because he had to race 20km in 3 days and he was trying to conserve energy?
EL G led with 600 to go and immediately broke the stretched out group. Hall doesn't run on the track. But I agree that it has its place in strategy.
Isn't this book Ancient?
Or was it revised for modern times?