Workout Pace Guide

No, it's too general. You should modify these sessions to be a percentage of vVO2max instead of simply subtracting a certain number of seconds. There's a lot of room under 20 minutes, so trying to generalize is not a good idea.

Good thought.

How do you define/establish vVO2max?

Coachity Coach Coach wrote:

Good thought.

How do you define/establish vVO2max?

You would accurately establish it in a lab. Put a guy on a treadmill, put a tube and mouthpiece on him, gradually increase the pace, and eventually you will reach a cut off point where he isn't consuming any higher amount of oxygen. You can continue to increase the speed but it won't change oxygen consumption.

Whatever his speed is when you reach the 100% point is his velocity at VO2 max.

You repeat this test with many different runners, and over time you can make generalizations about that speed. They've found that it comes out to be the speed you can maintain for 10-11 minutes.

For a guy like Bekele, who is running 5k in 12:37, his vVO2max is nearly 5k pace. For a high school athlete, you might be talking 2 mile race pace.

If you use the link provided as an example, and plug in 10 minutes for 2 miles, it lists 100% of VO2 max as 5:02 mile pace.

Great info.

So then once I establish vV02 Max I can use Dr. Jack's guidelines such as:

VO2 max Intervals at 98-100% of vVO2

Lactate Threshold at 88-92% of vVO2

etc.

Coachity Coach Coach wrote:

Good thought.

How do you define/establish vVO2max?

Outside of a lab, have your subject(s) run a 3K/3200/2M since they are raced at about 100% vVO2max. Use the pace from this session to determine subsequent paces for other sessions.

How about the following revisions to make it a percentage of vV02 Max:

Recovery Pace: 65-70% of vVO2

Easy Pace: 70-75% of vVO2

Steady Pace: 78-82% of vVO2

Aerobic Threshold: 85-87% of vVO2

Lactate Threshold: 89-91% of vVO2

Groove Pace: 94-95% of vVO2

VO2 Max Intervals: 97-99% of vVO2

Speed Intervals: 106-109% of vVO2

my mistake: make the VO2 max Intervals 98-100% of vVO2

did you just write "Groove Pace"

WTF is that?

Coachity, a couple of questions:

1- what age group are you coaching?

2- how many years, months, etc of training do they have under their belts?

3- how regular is their training, i.e. 3-4 days per week or 7 days per week?

The reason I ask is this: In the past when I have worked with younger runners who have not developed their aerobic system yet (both through lack of physical development and through few year of training vs, say, a 25 year old post-collegiate), I have found that Daniel's paces have to be somewhat altered for best results. For example, if you chart out PRs from 800 on up, almost ALL high school kids, even the best in the state year after year, show an upward slop to the right on his chart (meaning they are better at shorter distances than longer). Makes sense because they haven't trained very long yet.

The modification I've made with success is this: instead of using the highest VDOT value to determine training paces (which are the paces you list in your post above - percentages of VO2max), use 1500/mile pr for determining Rep pace from the chart in chapter 3, 3000/2mile pr for determining VO2max Interval Pace, use 5K pr for determining Threshold pace (which can then usually be successfully used to determine all other paces too, from M to L/E).

Good luck.

PS - I can't believe I just referred to someone as Coachity

Coachity Coach Coach wrote:

How about the following revisions to make it a percentage of vV02 Max:

Recovery Pace: 65-70% of vVO2

Easy Pace: 70-75% of vVO2

Steady Pace: 78-82% of vVO2

Aerobic Threshold: 85-87% of vVO2

Lactate Threshold: 89-91% of vVO2

Groove Pace: 94-95% of vVO2

VO2 Max Intervals: 97-99% of vVO2

Speed Intervals: 106-109% of vVO2

I use very similar numbers.

Pony

What you are saying makes sense in that in all likelihood younger runners have focused on shorter races early in their career. I'm not saying that is right or wrong but it is what we usually see, so their best PR's will be at the shorter distances.

On Dr. Jack's tables I have taken that into account, not by modifying his paces but rather by adjusting the length of the work done to make sure it stays within the recommened percentage of weekly miles. Fo a high school kid doing only 35 miles a week then a AT pace run may only be 3.5 to 4 miles and LT run only be 2.5 to 3 miles. Similarly they would only do 2.5 miles worth of VO2 max intervals.

As for the person who asked about Groove Pace - basically its a training pace I use that is in the neighborhood of 8k to 10k race pace for most better runners. Otherwise defined as 94-96% of vVO2. Its a good pace at which to work on lactate buffering, as well as getting comfortable at 8k-10k race pace. IMHO.

Thanks

JD is pretty rigid in his pace prescriptions. Lactate pace (T) is plus or minus 0 seconds. According to him you have to run at exactly the right pace to reap any benefits. Ditto for MaxVO2 pace, no wiggle room.

However other coaches will recommend you run according to feel, especially when training at T pace: it can be anything from 10km pace to 13.1 pace and you will still reap the benefits. I have gotten good results from longer tempo work 8-10km runs at HM pace but according to JD this would be too slow.