Question for Tinman: training paces

My Formulas to calculate the training paces (others are good too, so keep that in mind):

Aerobic Recovery Pace (after really hard races or training should be run around 60% of Max VO2 which is about 66.6% velocity of 5k pace, I figure. So, at 5:30 pace for the 5k or 330 seconds per mile, your aerobic recovery pace (ARP) would be calculated like this: 330" / .666 = 495.5" or 8:15.5 / mile.

Your Normal Distance Pace (I once called it SAP or Slow Aerobic Pace)(now I just call it NDP) can be up to 70% of max VO2. I tend to favor shooting for 67.5% of max VO2 because it occurred to me long ago that aerobic capacity can vary a little from day to day and especially during times of fatigue. So, setting your NDP at 70% could prove too fast and tiring on some days and leave you depleted for fast workouts or long runs (true keys to improving your race fitness). So, I suggest shooting for 67.5% of max VO2 as a measure of control. You caculate it like this: 5k pace = 5:30 or 330" / .75 = 440" or 7:20 / mile.

Your one hour race pace can be calculated by using my T60 (time = 60 minutes) formula: 5k pace = 5:30 or 330 seconds / .93 = 354.87" or 5:54.8 / mile.

You want a tempo pace for less than 15 minutes, so let's assume you want to do a quick but solid run that gets results but does not wipe you out. Perhaps you might go for a 15 minute run at 10k pace. 10k pace is a really good pace because it begins to develop max VO2 (especially as a runner gets down closer to 30 minutes for the 10k) and improves lactate threshold/turnpoint/stamina, shifting lactate curves to the right (towards faster velocities). So, take your 5k pace (330") and multiply it by 1.04 to get your 10k pace. (330" x 1.04 = 343.2" or 5:43.2 / mile). So, in your case you might run 4km at 10km pace. A 14 minute 5km runner might run 5km at their 10km pace to reach the 15 minute mark for the fast tempo run.

For tempo runs in the 20 to 30 minute range, I would run the same pace as the T60 that you calculated two paragraphs ago.

For 30 to 40 minute tempo runs, I would use the following formula: 5k pace (330") / .90 = 366.66" or 6:06.66 / mile. This is your approximate half-marathon race pace (HMP).

You asked about adjusting training paces as the weeks pass when you are not racing. I have a couple possibilities for you. First, you can gauge your efforts as you run the standard workouts listed above and rate them on your own scale. My AES (Aerobic Effort Scale) scale is 1 to 10. See the following:

AES

--------------------------

10 = 3k race effort

9 = 5k race effort

8 = 10k race effort

7 = 15k race effort

6 = Half marathon race effort

5 = Marathon race effort

4 = No Man's Zone

3 = NDP...Normal Distance Pace

2 = ARP...Aerobic Recovery Pace

1 = Jogging

0 = shuffling along or walking at a moderate pace.

------------------------------

The next method is to use heart rate as a means of determining if your body has adapted to the workload/ training paces you have been doing. It is not foolproof since glycogen depletion, dehydration, and lack of sleep may change heart rate a little. If you measure your measure your heart rate on a tempo run and it drops at the same pace, then it is possible that your body has adapted. Since more permanent adaptations take in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 weeks, you can expect that if your training has been within the ZOA (zone of adaptation) (not too hard, not to much; just right, within 5% plus or minus), then your pace at the same heart rate might be about 3-6 seconds faster per mile. I generally figure 1-2 seconds per mile per week is normal when you are training correctly. So, if your heart was 170 beats per minute in the latter half of your tempo run when you started training at a given pace (let's say 5:54 pace) and now at the same pace you find that your heart rate is just 165, then you probably can guess that your body is in better shape.

Thanks tinman. Actually, when 1 mentioned the 1 hour aerobic conditioning run, I meant it more as an 80% of MHR type run. It came from Joe Vigil's book, on the 10k training, i just was wondering if you would give me a calculation based on 5k pace, instead of mile pace.

Anyways, i appreciate the info!

Does anyone else get the impression that Tinman -- a rather late bloomer on this board who seems to have surfaced in October-- is asking/answering his own questions?

Just a thought.

Martin

Doubtful, but even if it were true, it's still useful for the rest of us.

Fair Point.

Martin

Martin, you're starting to show your suspicious side again.

But it's a sickness ...

I admit to harbouring more than a few paranoiac theories -- but the timing of this new chap Tinman does strike me as a bit serendipitous.

Still, as someone noted, at least he's limiting himself to running-related topics.

In the spirit of John Lennon and the four Scalllies, I'll go back to deconstructing the hidden meaning on the Abbey Road album cover ... (Why *was* Paul barefoot?)

Martin

because he was dead of course, everyone knows that.

Can u help me with pace. I run 4:03 for the mile and around 14:10 for the 5km.

First, like tinman, I started posting this year around late september. Nothing wrong with that. Not every knowledgable guru (not me) posts on these message boards. Some may decide too for some reason or other, and the rest of us are glad for it. So, we appreciate guys like tinman.

Second, for tinman: do you have percentages off of 5k times for the other AEP--marathon, 1/2 marathon, and 15k? Much appreciated

Sure, I can help. By the way, Martin claims that I am answering my own questions. That is ridiculous. Ask Weldon to check. By the way, I have been posting on letsrun.com for about 18 months. I used other names earlier. I settled on tinman this fall.

For the gentleman who has run 4:03 for the mile and 14:10 for the 5k, I am glad to help you with training paces. I can give you more details than this if you need them.

First, let me comment on your mile to 5k ratio; not bad. Here are some paralellel eqivalents:

800m: 1:50.45

1500m: 3:45.02

1 mile: 4:03.00

3000m: 8:01.54

2 miles: 8:40.02

5000m: 13:57.23

10000m: 29:01.44

So, your mile and 5k time are fairly close to equal. I am guessing that you race the mile or 1500m more often and try to peak for it, so your 5k time is a bit slower than its equal in the mile.

In my opinion, when training aerobically (3k pace and slower) it is better to use a 3k or slower benchmark to determine training paces. It is hard to estimate how much of your 4:03 mile is attributed to anaerobic capacity/ speed. Let's assume that you could run 14:03.2 for the 5k now; 4:32 pace per mile. The following are your training paces according to my charts:

ARP (aerobic recovery pace)... 6:48.4 / mile

NDP (normal distance pace).... 6:02.6/ mile

SP (sprint pace) .... 12.66-13.3"/ 100m

SEP (speed endurance pace).... 13.80-14.5"/ 100m

STP (speed transition pace)... 15.0"/ 100m

ACP (aerobic capacity pace)... 64.15-67.35/ 400m

CVP (critical velocity pace).. 70.91/ 400m

T60 (1-hour pace or ~85% of Max VO2) 4:52.47/ mile

T120(2-hour pace or ~80% of Max VO2) 5:02.22/ mile

T180(3-hour pace or ~75% of Max VO2) 5:12.64/ mile

I hope this helps. tinman

Hey man I appreciate the help. Right now I am buidling my mileage up after an injury and have been doing most of my runs around 6:55-7:00 pace because it felt the best... but what you wrote has some good thought behind it and I appreciate it.

This is an example about how the message board can be a useful tool... getting ideas from other runners..

Again thanks

80% of max heart rate pace can vary from day to day a bit, so keep that in mind. But, your goal 80% heart rate pace should fall into the range of 5k pace / .75 to .776.

Example:

15:30 for 5k = 5:00 per mile or 300 seconds...

300" / .75 = 6:40/mile (67.5% of Max VO2)

300" / .776 = 6:26.6/mile (70% of Max VO2)

Yes.

5k to marathon is a leap of faith because conditioning for the two events is often quite different. So, the range I suggest as reasonable in 9.65 to 10.0 x your 5k total time equals your marathon time.

Example: 15 minute 5k run x 9.65 to 10.0 = 2:24:46 to 2:30

Again, for the half marathon, there will be some variance. Simply put, the time generated from a 5k can be partly attributed to anaerobic power. So, for a runner with a bunch of anaerobic power, their marathon performance is probably going to not correlate as closely to longer races as someone who has modest anaerobic power and good aerobic endurance. Here is a formula for the 5k to the half-marathon: 5k time x 4.6 to 4.8

Example: 15 minute 5k x 4.6 to 4.8 = 69 to 72 minutes for the half-marathon.

For the 5k to 15k conversion, I simply use 3.2 as the factor.

Example: 15 minute 5k x 3.2 = 48 minutes for the 15k.

tinman (never capitalized),

Acknowledging that heart rates can vary, as an approximation, what % of MHR would you assign to the

various paces you mention? I ask because for someone like

me who only ran cross country this fall, race times are

relatively meaningless, while HR's are easily measurable

and can provide immediate feedback.

Also, FYI, Pfitzinger has conversion factors to compare race

times in his Road Racing for Serious Runners. As noted in

another thread, there are all kinds of time/distance

comparisons available. I must admit, I did not take the

time to compare your's with P's, but I would have to guess

that they end up pretty close together.

I enjoy your insightful comments.

tinman (never capitalized),

Acknowledging that heart rates can vary, as an approximation, what % of MHR would you assign to the

various paces you mention? I ask because for someone like

me who only ran cross country this fall, race times are

relatively meaningless, while HR's are easily measurable

and can provide immediate feedback.

Also, FYI, Pfitzinger has conversion factors to compare race

times in his Road Racing for Serious Runners. As noted in

another thread, there are all kinds of time/distance

comparisons available. I must admit, I did not take the

time to compare your's with P's, but I would have to guess

that they end up pretty close together.

I enjoy your insightful comments.

How did that get up there twice? Damn these newfangled

computer gadgets!

~ 70% of Max HR = ARP = 60% of Max VO2

~ 78% of MHR = NDP = 67.5% of Max VO2

~ 82% of MHR = 70% of Max VO2

~ 89% of MHR = T60 or 85% of Max VO2

~ 98% of MHR = 100% Max VO2

I don't take too much stock in heart rates because they can vary relative to dehydration, glycogen depletion, lack of sleep, caffeine, etc. The above are my ideals, but don't stress about them.

I am confused on the purpose of the T60,120,180 paces for the theoretical 4:03/14:03 runner:

***********

T60 (1-hour pace or ~85% of Max VO2) 4:52.47/ mile

T120(2-hour pace or ~80% of Max VO2) 5:02.22/ mile

T180(3-hour pace or ~75% of Max VO2) 5:12.64/ mile

***********

Would these be race paces for this runner for say, 1/2 M, Mar, and say 50km?