Why can't I break 30 (rate my training)?

Also, this is obviously for 8k...I wish I was having trouble breaking 30 for 10k, haha

You need long runs and you need more tempo runs. Recovery days are needed but it seems your paces are a little slow.

Just my $0.02, but try to run easy days at around 7/mile.

Easy. You do almost no quality aerobic workouts i.e. 5-7 mile tempo runs, 5-6 x mile, 8-10 x 1k at controlled paces. Also, I would say run your easy days as easy as you want. Aiming for a pace on easy runs will almost certainly do more harm than good.

Assuming this isn't your last year, bump up the mileage next summer. 45-50 for base training? I wasn't even considered good at the high school level and I was running 40-45. Now in college I run 60-65 per week (75 in the summer) and only drop down to around 50-55 once we start peaking.

A wise man once told me to do make my hard days hard and my easy days easy. That means on workout days add a morning run, long warmup, strides, and a long cooldown. Then make your easy days really easy in order to recover.

I run similar mileage as you and my workout days are usually 14-15 miles total whereas my easy days are 4 or 5. I also throw some other important things in there - some very fast sprints to maintain top end speed, and a medium-long run. As long as your easy days are a walk in the park, it is manageable.

So, something like:

M - AM: 4 miles, PM: long warmup, strides, tempo run or long intervals, long cooldown = 11 miles for the afternoon

T - 9 miles easy (medium-long run)

W - 4 miles easy

Th - AM: 4 miles, PM: long warmup, lots of strides, hills or short intervals, long cooldown = 10 miles

F - 4 miles easy

Sa - 12 miles easy (long run)

Su - 4 miles easy + strides + short all-out bursts (very short, lots of rest) to maintain top end speed = 6 miles on the day

Total: 64 miles

This is all good advice! Thank you, I don't see myself running harder on the recovery days, but ill make my tues/thurs doubles harder, and our morning workouts are just hard, short intervals generally, hence my doubles.

I also think it's too late in the game (4 weeks counting this one) left to up my long run, so all this stuff I'll keep in mind for next year...thank you!

You are absolutely correct, looking back I am missing more tempo/long stuff...i finally for the first time in ages have a training partner this winter (and we have no track program) so I am gonna take a bit of time after the season and really start doing more long hard stuff. The course this weekend was fairly tough and next two races are much flatter with better footing in comparison.

I'm the 4-5 guy on my team and considering we are in one of those weak small school d3 conferences we don't do too poorly.

But i have a hard time calling myself a runner on a personal level when I can't break 6 flat pace in an 8k race. I'll repost and let you all know how I do this sat. Thanks again!

Run easier on your easy days. Don't fall into the speed trap like so many people - running fast on your easy (or long) days won't make you faster!

Easy/long days should be no faster than 8:00/mile.

Agreed. Dont EVER aim for a pace during recovery runs - they need to be at a pace that will allow recovery for the next quality session - some days they will be faster than others....

How is your weight? If you are carrying a little extra, that can make a big difference. If so, try to eat smart and shed the unneeded lbs and your racing will get better.

I was just where you were in college xc way back in the day. The reason was the same as the reason you're at 30. as people have said, do an actual long run (1:30 or more, probably 13-17 miles), get the overall mileage up, and get the tempos longer and faster. do the tempos hard, take the recovery runs super slow and do the easy runs based on feel. if you're feeling great on an easy day, go hard (but never sprint) and go slow on days you're feeling really beat. the point is that your hard days need to be fast and long enough to prepare you to go solidly sub-6 pace in races. and you do far too few intervals. you should have something like 8-12 intervals on interval days. something like 3x200 w/u, 8x1k, or 3x200 w/u, 16x400, etc. The stuff that will really help you over the long term is the interval work from 1k-2k, done at 5k goal pace if you can.

all this stuff dropped my 5M time down 3 minutes to 27:04, from age 37 to age 39.

as for the last two weeks, start the longer, harder tempos and longer run but then take it really easy the last few days before your final race. longer-term development is really the important issue for you. move the mileage gradually up to 60-80 during the offseason and there'll be a big drop for track.

Your mileage isn't the problem, though it could be higher. Your interval workouts just don't seem to be geared towards 8k. You don't do any interval work at 8k race pace and when you do you should be doing at least 8k in volume.

You also should be doing tempo runs at least every 10 days.

Doing 4x1000 3:20, 3:14, 3:10, 3:13 at a pace that is probably faster than your 3k pace just doesn't make sense.

I hate to say this and sound like a total prick, but maybe talent? Looks like a big limiting factor.

Just thinking back, I started running late (18), and my first ever race was 8k xc.

With no previous training aside from playing lots of hockey, I ran 28:32 (this was at Sundodger). I consider myself to be moderately talented. I know guys who have run faster off nothing.

4 1/2 years and 4000 miles later I've dropped 4:30 off that, but that just makes me think - if I could run 28:30 off nothing back in the day, but some people can't break 30 with a fair amount of training, it can't be completely the training's fault...

I meant 14000, not 4000.

If I could improve that much running only 4000 miles in 4 1/2 years then I would certainly be more than moderately talented...

general fitz wrote:

I hate to say this and sound like a total prick, but maybe talent? Looks like a big limiting factor.

Just thinking back, I started running late (18), and my first ever race was 8k xc.

With no previous training aside from playing lots of hockey, I ran 28:32 (this was at Sundodger). I consider myself to be moderately talented. I know guys who have run faster off nothing.

4 1/2 years and 4000 miles later I've dropped 4:30 off that, but that just makes me think - if I could run 28:30 off nothing back in the day, but some people can't break 30 with a fair amount of training, it can't be completely the training's fault...

What you say is somewhat true. The OP will probably never be a world beater. But that's no reason not to try to train intelligently and become as good as possible.

And, to answer the question at hand: you need to be doing higher volume workouts, as others have mentioned. 5-7 miles, at or slower than 10k pace, are what you need to be a distance runner.

Am I doing this right wrote:

Your mileage isn't the problem, though it could be higher. Your interval workouts just don't seem to be geared towards 8k. You don't do any interval work at 8k race pace and when you do you should be doing at least 8k in volume.

You also should be doing tempo runs at least every 10 days.

Doing 4x1000 3:20, 3:14, 3:10, 3:13 at a pace that is probably faster than your 3k pace just doesn't make sense.

This post is right on target!!

[quote]a balanced view wrote:

[quote]general fitz wrote:

I hate to say this and sound like a total prick, but maybe talent? Looks like a big limiting factor.

Everyone is limited by talent. You haven't trained hard/smart enough yet to know where your "talent" will stop you. I agree that you're probably not likely to be a sub 27:00 guy. But you have a lot of room to optimize your training. It's very realistic you for to improve a minute or minute and a half by next season. To my way of thinking, that kind of improvement is worth the effort.

No offense taken, I kind of enjoy the fact that my talent level is low and I run more mileage and work harder than a lot of guys on my team running 27-28 min. But I absolutely love running and don't see why this should stop me from training smartly and getting the most out of my body that I can. I have a very high pain tolerance and really enjoy making it hurt.

This winter is going to be all about the longer stuff, I'm gonna stop doing the hard short stuff and do more of the long tempo/race pace stuff.

The past two days I've come down with a bit of an achilles issue. It's been tight with some sharp pains at times, mostly when I hit hills. It's not really bad enough to call a run off, just uncomfortable. It's mainly because my coach gives us too much speed work (it's a small school and it's tough to field a full team, so he designs it around 40 mpw). Once this season is over I'm going to take a week or so, then just start doing lots of long tempos

Thanks again everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it. That is definitely what is missing from my training. Plus, with a long run of only 10 miles, that's not a high enough percentage of my weekly miles

Train more and harder.

be really careful about the achilles now. do the eccentric calf raises.

the talent thing is irrelevant. any given individual who wants to get better is going to get better with hard work for years, and it is clear that this runner is nowhere near the point of optimal training. I wanted to mention also that after a second disappointing college xc season with barely better than 30:00 for 8k, back in the day, I did a 10 week period of 50-70 mpw, gradually moving up, with no speed work but harder runs, and had destroyed most of my track pr's by the end of that, before doing too much pavement running and getting injured. So, you can expect some big improvement in just a few months at your age if you stay healthy and change your training.