Using "Daniels" workouts for xc

Look at the VDOT tables earlier in the book. Find your recent race times and look at what VDOT number that corresponds to. There is another table a little further in the book that lists all the paces for each VDOT number, R, I, T, MP, etc.

I have only ran the 800m in my life and i do not know my current 5000m race ability

Daniel's R pace is current mile pace ability. So, take your PR from track (if you ran the mile), and run that pace for 200-400m with full recovery. If you didn't run the mile, Dr. Daniels has pace charts.

Yes i only ran the 800m and according to my 800m time my PREDICTED pace time for the mile is around a 4:34. But why would i want to base my training paces off of a mile time but i be running the intervals way too fast for xc then and way too early in the season?

Yes i only ran the 800m and according to my 800m time my PREDICTED pace time for the mile is around a 4:34. But why would i want to base my training paces off of a mile time but i be running the intervals way too fast for xc then and way too early in the season?[/quote]

Understand this, in the Daniels system, you're not basing your workouts off an 800, a 1500, or a 5K time, you're basing them off a VDOT value. Your current race pace is merely an indicator of your VDOT value. Make sure, though, when you set your workout paces that you're using the 5K training tables and not the 800/1500 or 1500/3000 tables if you want to be true to the system.

It is entirely possible that, at your current level of training, you couldn't get a 5K time with the same VDOT value as your 800 race time. Because of that, you could start conservatively and go for training paces one or two VDOT values below what your current 800 race pace says you should. At some point, though, you'll get a decent 5K race time and you can, at that point, use the VDOT value you get from that the set your training paces.

Hope that helps!

Jman wrote:

Yes i only ran the 800m and according to my 800m time my PREDICTED pace time for the mile is around a 4:34. But why would i want to base my training paces off of a mile time but i be running the intervals way too fast for xc then and way too early in the season?

Okay, the OT 200 results are up. I'll work on a lengthier answer here. When you say your predicted mile pace is around 4:34, I'm guessing you're looking at the table on page 56 of the second edition of Daniels Running Formula. You should then have an 800 PR of about 2:04. Assuming you're still in that kind of shape (if that PR came two months ago, you're probably not quite there any longer--depends of what you've been doing, though).

If we flip back to pages 48 and 49 of the book, the means you have (had?) a VDOT value of about 66. You may want to think more in the range of 63 to 65 now because you may not be adequately endurance trained to do your workouts at 66, even if you still are in the same shape as when you ran your 2:04.

Now go to the chapter toward the back of the book about 5K to 15K training. It looks like, for simplicity's sake, Daniels took the VDOT values out of the table and based everything off current race pace. Honestly, that's an improvement over the first edition, but the paces are still based on VDOT values. If you quickly go back to pages 48 and 49, you'll find that your predicted 4:34 1600 corresponds to a predicted 15:45 or so at 5K (this prediction is way, way off, however, if you're training at altitude).

Honestly, I don't know many high school 2:04 800s who could get within sniffing distance of a 15:45 5K, but the assumption here is that if you max out at 2:04 for the 800, you will max out close to 15:45 for the 5K. And you're young; endurance development does not come as quickly as speed development (I believe you can read this to mean that high school runners were not the primary audience in mind when Daniels developed his tables).

If I was your coach, and knowing that you're new to XC, I'd probably start you off with training intensities suited to about a 17:30 5K and set your rep, interval, and threshold paces according to the table you see on pages 250 and 251. If you held up well through the workouts and an early race indicated we were in the ballpark, I'd stick there. Otherwise, I'd make adjustments as indicated. I would also make allowances for terrain on any rep, interval, or threshold times--anything not on a track will be slightly to somewhat slower than it would otherwise be on a track.

All this to say, your question is a much better one than I first thought.

Maybe Jack Daniels himself will visit this thread. If so, you'll recognize him by the handle "JTupper." He used to show up on the boards now and then--not sure if he does any longer.

thanks past his prime you are very helpful...I will use that as i set my 200 R pace at 38s and my 400 R pace at 1:17 as you said. So basically I am just doing the workouts on page 233 for 6 weeks without any changes, correct (other than mileage probably)?

Many times, high schoolers' appropriate VDOT will be lower than predicted by their mile time. If you plot a high-schooler's 800, mile, 2-mile, and 5k PRs (even if you adjust the 5k by a few percent to compensate for it being xc), their performances correspond to lower VDOTs as the race distance increases. This is simply because they don't have the aerobic bases required of longer races. If you had a high schooler do a 10k, the difference would be even more extreme.

You should probably bump your VDOT down a few values, especially because you'll be doing a lot of work at T-pace. The R-pace stuff isn't as important, because all you need to do in R-workouts is go fast enough to train your brain & muscles "how" to run fast, and ensure you get enough recovery. The pace isn't crucial. HOWEVER! In Threshold (T-pace) work, you ruin the workout by going too fast! A T-workout that is run too fast just becomes an easy interval session. You're supposed to run slightly below your lactate threshold to stimulate your body to increase it. Aerobic threshold runs (Marathon or M-pace) are very much the same (but in some sense are self-regulating! Just TRY to keep up a pace significantly faster than your M-pace for 8 miles!)

And, finally, just remember that ALL pace charts and numbers are at best a guide. You've got to learn to relax and listen to your body. If your body says "THIS feels like T-pace today," go with it, even if it's slow.

777 just gave you some solid advice. I appreciate the fact, as well, that he (she?) included some mention of T-pace running. Although I use Daniels a lot in training runners, I use a great deal more T-pace running in early stages of training than Daniels indicates. T-pace is a good way to feel some sustained speed and get your body moving in that direction without launching into intervals.

All the best to you!

We base all of our interval training off of Daniels. I can't say that we base a year round training system on everything in his book. The simple fact of the matter is that most HS kids do not train consistently year round - so it is hard to design a program for a team under the premise that everyone has 12 weeks of base training coming in.

But, we have had quite a bit of success structuring our training around Daniel's VDOT values as far as our interval work. We do all of our training off of current race pace. From my experience, I would not suggest you base your training (at this point) on the assumption that you can run a 17:30-17:40 5K. If you are only a 2:04ish 800 runner, and have never raced further than that, I don't think you have the basis to make that assumption. It is FAR better to train a little slow, than a little fast.

For comparison purposes, our top 5 ran 16:49, 16:56, 17:14, 17:23, 17:25 at the state meet and placed 2nd in the small school division last year. We felt this was about what they were capable of, and they were good performances for them. That being said, we started their trianing in August at about 18:00-18:30 5k VDOT pace. They were in "ok" shape coming in, but no one was putting in 40+ mile weeks or anything either.

OUr top 3 are coming back, and they have been doing some running - but, we will still probably start them in the 17:35-18:05 range in august, even though they are older, stronger and have been running more. We will wait til we see some race results to start lowering their training paces.

My advice, get 2-3 weeks of 5 day per week running under your belt. 1 long run of 45-60 minutes, 1 run of 40 minutes (where you go 15 easy, 10 tempo, 15 easy, 2 easy days of 30-40 min. and one day of 35 min. plus 6-8 x strides. Once you have run consistently for a couple weeks, go run a local 5K race(on a trail or grass if it happens to be possible.) Then, base your training off of your race time.

Basing your training off of what you "hope" to run when you have no experience to base it on is kind of a recipe for getting worn out and injured. We have trained more conservatively each of the past 5 years, and we have gotten better and better each year (not just our best kids, all of our kids.)

Some great advice here. I may screw that up...

You are a pretty decent 800 runner for whom a 34-second 200 is probably pretty comfortable. Heck, I'm a 42-year-old long distance runner and I find a 34 pretty easy. I'll never run a 34 in a race, but the biomechanical advnatage I'm getting by running at that comfortably anaerobic (but not deeply so) pace is critical to my comfort level for a 15:45 5K. I think for these short reps you're well served by running a bit faster than the others are suggesting.

If I were coaching you, I would suggest you forego the 400s--they're too long for this point in the season for your reps workout. I would have you do 200s instead: 12x200 in 34-36, once per week, on the track or on a measured flat grass course. This workout is critical for your ability to run comfortably and efficiently. It's not designed to make you into Walter Dix, and it's not going to make you "peak".

The advice on threshold and interval paces is spot-on. Run those workouts at a lower VDOT because their intent is quite different, which is to raise your threshold (and consequently your endurance) and to raise your VO2 max. You need to stick with current VDOT for that. The easiest way to figure that out is to do a time trial--5K, 3 mile, or 2 mile. Match that against the performance table and you're gold. You will gain much more from training at the correct intensity for that type of workout than you would by training at a level much higher than your current fitness.