100m WR progression and slavery

I suspect it has more to do with the dearth of athletic opportunities in West Africa today.

Also, unless they're running on a quality track, with FAT, it's hard to compare them to Western hemisphere track stars. It's reasonable to think that they might have a hard time knowing if they're good enough to really make it.

Finally, all the West African athletes want to be soccer starts and get picked up by big European clubs.

To answer both questions simply: yes.

I do believe their abilities are associated with the atrocities of the slave trade. In addition to what you stated about breeding purposes and acclimating to overall tough living, you also have to consider this facts:

1. Millions and millions of Africans (including sub-Saharan peoples) were shipped to the Americas

2. Only the strongest, most immune, most brilliant and talented bodies actually survived the long, hard trek over the Atlantic. There are literally millions of bones/bodies scattered throughout the waters that did not make it due to sickness, disease, attempted escape, etc.

3. I think it is safe to assume that Black Americans, Central Americans, and Caribbeans are the descendants of those that survived.

"Millions and millions" is not correct

Almost all were Subsaharan

West Africa produces some very fast sprinters

Many West African countries are not very stabil, if they had the same stability and recources as in America/Canada/Caribean, I believe they would be as dominant.

By assuming that the slaves that survived the atrocities of slavery were the ones that carried the trait of speed is assuming alot. You have to have the trait of high percentage of fast twitch to begin with. Brazilian slaves were taken from south central africa and made the arduous ocean journey, yet were are all thier top sprinters?

Most West African National soccer teams are known for their raw speed.

Its not selective breeding, its a characteristic of a particular population.

friedduck wrote:

While looking over the link of the 100 meter world record progression on the front page I couldn't help but realize the astounding amount of black world record holders who came from the United States, Jamaica, and Canada.

The two Canadians you mentioned, Ben Johnson and Donovan Bailey, were born in Jamaica.

ok, you're talking about evolution, which happens over thousands of years.

possible, but VASTLY improbable.

besides that, they did not kill the weak, they just didn't pay as much for them. so actually the selective breeding process was very limited.

the more I think about this stupid idea, the less I feel is is logical.

Just imagine what our crime and murder statistics would be like if they hadn't been brought over here.

what -- so it couldn't have anything to do with these particular sprinters working harder than everyone else? these individuals don't have a huge amount of drive and focus? their success stems from actions committed by the white man hundreds of years ago, not because of their own talent?

prof henry louis gates talking about james watson's highly controversial comments, it also applies here:

Watson's error is that he associates individual genetic differences (which, of course, do in fact exist) with ethnic variation (which is sociocultural and highly malleable). Character traits—abilities and behaviors, such as intelligence or basketball skills, that are popularly attributed to groups and are defined as "genetic"—will, in fact, continue to delimit the freedom of choice and expression of individuals who fall into those "racial" categories, regardless of our individual attainments and achievements. In the end, visions that are racialist may end up doing the same work of those that are racist. This is a lesson Watson has lived, and it is one from which we all might learn.

-http://www.theroot.com/id/46680/page/1

The black is a better athlete to begin with because he's been bred to be that way — because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back, and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs. This goes back all the way to the Civil War when during the slave trading, the owner — the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. ”

jan 1988

Imagine wrote:

Just imagine what our crime and murder statistics would be like if they hadn't been brought over here.

you may be joking, but for people that really believe this... it may be true, but not 'cause they're black, it's cause they were brought over here and started out as slaves. None of them had peaceful fair starts or easy lives. That discrimination carried on through what...the 60s? so how can you blame them negatively for that(assuming it's true). Surely, you don't think that black people in England or China act the same way (again for those that believe that black people are bad)

Of course he is rebel rousing, and of course it is more of a social structure than color.

Funny story. I was in Spain talking to my Aunt, and we got on the subject of blacks. Most blacks in Spain (not many) are from moorish discent and most are educated. She said she had no problem if her daughter married a black guy.

The funny thing was when I said how about a gypsy (the poor in Spain) and she almost passed out! I guess it is all pont of view.

On a side note, the Chineese work hrder than anybody, have more people than anybody, and don't produce many athletes, so the "work harder" comment is stupid.

Sport is easy to figure out, you either got "IT" or you dont.

The sport of track and field didn't begin the day you guys got an internet connection and logged onto LetsRun. Every Olympics I can remember, there have been West African sprinters from places like the Ivory Coast, Namibia, Nigeria, Ghana, etc. in the semis and finals at the Olympics and World Championships. The French have sprinters of West African, not diaspora, origin.

Not only that, but this is a myth:

"With all of the selective breeding that went on in those days, done in an attempt to produce bigger, stronger, faster, more efficient slaves that had a greater work capacity"

I have read lots of books on slavery, but haven't read anything about the practice of husbandry.

This is especially a myth when you look at the slave system in the Carribean, which was predicated on very large plantations with hundreds of Africans for every handful of whites and where Africans, by necessity, had more cultural autonomy under a general system of labor exploitation. Slaves did not become a particular expensive proposition until the abolition of the slave trade by the British and their largely successful attempt to enforce this ban on the high seas relatively late in the game.

and that's why every black person is faster than every white person and there are no other factors involved, right?

c'mon now, white people have relied on strength to survive too, you don't think white farmers encouraged their daughters to marry big strong guys? and how about the widespread practice of raping your slaves, how does that factor into the gene pool? and what about the "breeding" that's been going on since the civil war, that doesn't count for anything?

the jocks get the cheerleaders, they reproduce, it has nothing to do with skin color. certain countries support certain sports. certain countries put their focus on academics. this is all social. there are fast people, slow people, stupid people, smart people, of varying degrees, all over the world, in all different shades. the trends you see are social trends.

anyone who says people with dark skin have an unfair advantage at sprinting needs to stop kidding themselves.

sirbek wrote:

ok, you're talking about evolution, which happens over thousands of years.

Wrong! Actually evolution can happen over short periods of time. Have you ever heard of the peppered moth? It changed color due to the industrial revolution:

roboto wrote:

sirbek wrote:

ok, you're talking about evolution, which happens over thousands of years.

Wrong! Actually evolution can happen over short periods of time. Have you ever heard of the peppered moth? It changed color due to the industrial revolution:

http://www.mansfieldct.org/schools/mms/staff/hand/genNaturalselection06.htm

WRONG! the white moth didn't evolve into the dark moth, they both already existed -- but the dark ones were rare. when the trees changed color all the white ones were eaten.

this is an example of natural selection, not of the evolutionary process in its entirety.

sweaty shorts wrote:

Imagine wrote:

Just imagine what our crime and murder statistics would be like if they hadn't been brought over here.

you may be joking, but for people that really believe this... it may be true, but not 'cause they're black, it's cause they were brought over here and started out as slaves. None of them had peaceful fair starts or easy lives. That discrimination carried on through what...the 60s? so how can you blame them negatively for that(assuming it's true). Surely, you don't think that black people in England or China act the same way (again for those that believe that black people are bad)

Oh yeah, it's someone else's fault.

Thanks for the reminder.

Imagine wrote:

Just imagine what our crime and murder statistics would be like if they hadn't been brought over here.

Statistics would be the same, but it would be the Chinese immigrants committing most the crimes. And if not the Chinese, then the Irish, or the Polish, or the Mexicans or whoever we stick at the bottom of the economic ladder.

yeah right wrote:

Imagine wrote:

Just imagine what our crime and murder statistics would be like if they hadn't been brought over here.

Statistics would be the same, but it would be the Chinese immigrants committing most the crimes. And if not the Chinese, then the Irish, or the Polish, or the Mexicans or whoever we stick at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Another guilt ridden lib, blaming America first.

No one has been "stuck" at the bottom of the economic ladder. How many blac, engineers do you know. How about black doctors? CPA's? Lawyers?

Hell, all a black person has to do is graduate and jobs are thrown at him to fulfill quotas. Yet, those quotas go unfilled because there aren't any professional blacks to fill them. Even black women complain about the lack of successful black men to date and marry.

America's fault? Of course it is.

nope wrote:

this is an example of natural selection, not of the evolutionary process in its entirety.

But that's how evolution works. The (mutant) trait already exists, and if that trait is favorable to survival/reproduction, it persists. Let's not split hairs here. I happen to disagree with the thrust of the OP, but his argument isn't ridiculous.

So tell me precisely what year that the history of slavery ceased to be an issue 1870? 1880? You honestly think that you can release a group of people from slavery owning absolutely nothing as a group and you will see economic parity within a hundred years if they would just 'get their shit together'. of course, gettting their collective shit together is a problem, but you can't possibly think that slavery has nothing to do with any of this. This is going to be a slow process.

If we took the entire state of Florida, stripped every resident of all their income, wealth, and education and offiically discriminated against them for 100 years, do you think they would show rough economic and social parity with the rest of the country 40 years after the end of offical discrimination.

You need to learn the difference between reasons and excuses. Certainly, the message of self-reliance is the only thing that is going to break this cycle, but the effects of the past continue to be felt in the absence of actual racists. Do you really just think everyone blithley makes choices out of thin air? Do you really think you would make the same choices you make now if you were someone else?

Real conservatives in the 1800's (like Mencken) would have disagreed with you completely - they didn't buy into this notion that everyone has equal opportunity - they were cynically aware that some people had luck and others didn't.

The idea that there are all these quotas to be filled is just angry white resentment, which is just as real a phenomena as white liberal guilt.