massive world improvement in the marathon, why?

Last years top 30 marathon times, there were 45 sub 2;09's, 78 sub 2:10's, the 100th best time was 2:10:37

2:04:26 ( 1) Haile Gebreselasie (ETH) 18 Apr 1973 30 Sep 2007 Berlin GER

2:06:28.6 ( 1) Emanuel Mutai (KEN) 01 Apr 1978 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:06:39 ( 1) Samuel Wanjiru (KEN) 10 Nov 1986 02 Dec 2007 Fukuoka JPN

2:06:44.5 ( 2) Richard Limo (KEN) 18 Nov 1980 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:06:50 ( 2) Deribe Mergia (ETH) 26 Oct 1980 02 Dec 2007 Fukuoka JPN

2:06:51 ( 2) Abel Kirui (KEN) 04 Jun 1982 30 Sep 2007 Berlin GER

2:07:11.8 ( 3) Paul Kirui (KEN) 05 Feb 1980 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:07:11.9 ( 4) James Rotich (KEN) 22 Dec 1978 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:07:13 ( 3) Atsushi Sato (JPN) 08 May 1978 02 Dec 2007 Fukuoka JPN

2:07:19 ( 1) Hassan Mubarak Shami (QAT) 02 Dec 1980 15 Apr 2007 Paris FRA

10

2:07:29 ( 3) Salim Kipsang (KEN) 22 Dec 1979 30 Sep 2007 Berlin GER

2:07:32 ( 1) Rodgers Rop (KEN) 16 Feb 1976 29 Apr 2007 Hamburg GER

2:07:33 ( 1) Aleksandr Kuzin (UKR) 21 Oct 1974 15 Apr 2007 Linz AUT

2:07:33 ( 2) Wilfred Kigen (KEN) 23 Feb 1975 29 Apr 2007 Hamburg GER

2:07:33.4 ( 5) Yonas Kifle (ERI) 24 Mar 1977 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:07:41 ( 1) Martin Lel (KEN) 28 Oct 1978 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:07:42 ( 3) William Kiprotich (KEN) 1975 29 Apr 2007 Hamburg GER

2:07:44 ( 2) Abderrahim Goumri (MAR) 21 May 1976 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:07:47 ( 3) Felix Limo (KEN) 22 Aug 1980 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:07:50.1 ( 6) Jason Mbote (KEN) 05 Jan 1977 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

20

2:07:52.2 ( 7) Shadrack Kiplagat (KEN) 21 Oct 2007 Amsterdam NED

2:07:54 ( 4) Jaouad Gharib (MAR) 22 May 1972 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:07:56 ( 5) Hendrick Ramaala (RSA) 02 Feb 1972 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:07:57 ( 1) Philip Singoei (KEN) 31 Dec 1975 14 Oct 2007 Eindhoven NED

2:07:58 ( 1) Wilfred Kigen- 2 23 Feb 1975 28 Oct 2007 Frankfurt GER

2:08:01 ( 4) Philip Manyim (KEN) 24 Mar 1978 30 Sep 2007 Berlin GER

2:08:04 ( 1) Bong-Ju Lee (KOR) 11 Oct 1970 18 Mar 2007 Seoul KOR

2:08:06 ( 6) Paul Tergat (KEN) 17 Jun 1969 22 Apr 2007 London ENG

2:08:09 ( 1) Nephat Kinyanjiu (KEN) 30 Jun 1977 21 Oct 2007 Beijing CHN

2:08:11 ( 2) Hosea Rotich (KEN) 02 Aug 1979 28 Oct 2007 Frankfurt GER

30

Top 30 from 1996, not the top time wouldn't make todays top 39(hall 39th in 2007 with his 2:08:24), top 50 was 2:10:50, top 100 was 2;12:02.

2:08:25 (1) Martin Fiz (ESP) 03 Mar 1963 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:08:26 (2) Bong-Ju Lee (KOR) 11 Oct 1970 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:08:30 (1) Gert Thys (RSA) 12 Nov 1971 04 Feb 1996 Beppu JPN

2:08:38 (1) Vanderlei deLima (BRA) 11 Aug 1969 12 Feb 1996 Tokyo JPN

2:08:38 (2) Antonio Pinto (POR) 22 Mar 1966 12 Feb 1996 Tokyo JPN

2:08:46 (3) Alberto Juzdado (ESP) 20 Aug 1966 12 Feb 1996 Tokyo JPN

2:08:50 (4) Kenjiro Jitsui (JPN) 16 Dec 1968 12 Feb 1996 Tokyo JPN

2:08:52 (1) Paul Evans (ENG) 13 Apr 1961 20 Oct 1996 Chicago IL USA

2:09:08 (3) Manuel Matias (POR) 30 Mar 1962 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:09:15 (1) Abel Anton (ESP) 24 Oct 1962 29 Sep 1996 Berlin GER

10

2:09:16a (1) Moses Tanui (KEN) 20 Aug 1965 15 Apr 1996 Boston MA USA

2:09:19 (4) Wan-Ki Kim (KOR) 07 Aug 1968 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:09:26a (2) Ezekiel Bitok (KEN) 15 Jan 1966 15 Apr 1996 Boston MA USA

2:09:32 (1) Joaquim Pinheiro (POR) 13 Jan 1961 03 Mar 1996 Otsu JPN

2:09:33 (2) Francis Robert Naali (TAN) 10 Feb 1972 29 Sep 1996 Berlin GER

2:09:36 (5) Yi-Yong Kim (KOR) 20 Sep 1973 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:09:43 (1) Fabian Roncero (ESP) 19 Oct 1970 13 Oct 1996 Carpi ITA

2:09:49 (3) Sammy Lelei (KEN) 14 Aug 1964 29 Sep 1996 Berlin GER

2:09:50 (1) Abdelkader El Mouaziz (MAR) 01 Jan 1969 14 Jan 1996 Marrakech MAR

2:09:51a (3) Cosmas Ndeti (KEN) 24 Nov 1971 15 Apr 1996 Boston MA USA

20

2:09:54a (1) Giacomo Leone (ITA) 10 Apr 1971 03 Nov 1996 New York NY USA

2:09:56 (1) Ezael Thlobo (RSA) 04 May 1964 20 Oct 1996 Reims FRA

2:10:00 (1) Dionicio Ceron (MEX) 09 Oct 1965 21 Apr 1996 London ENG

2:10:01 (4) Gilbert Rutto (KEN) 10 Jan 1961 29 Sep 1996 Berlin GER

2:10:02 (6) Jae-Ryong Kim (KOR) 25 Apr 1966 24 Mar 1996 Kyong-Ju KOR

2:10:03a (4) Lameck Aguta (KEN) 10 Oct 1971 15 Apr 1996 Boston MA USA

2:10:04 (2) Jerry Lawson (FL/USA) 02 Jul 1966 20 Oct 1996 Chicago IL USA

2:10:09a (2) Tumo Turbo (ETH) 23 Feb 1970 03 Nov 1996 New York NY USA

2:10:10 (5) Sakae Osaki (JPN) 18 Aug 1964 12 Feb 1996 Tokyo JPN

2:10:11a (5) Sammy Lelei- 2 14 Aug 1964 15 Apr 1996 Boston MA USA

30

nj wrote:

In the last 5 to 10 years there has been an explosion of super fast marathon times I'm not just referring to the drop of the world record from 2:06:50 to 2:04:23, but much more stunning the improvement of depth in the event. 2:10 was still very much world class in the late 90's now on a fast course it is pedestrian. 2:08 has become common place. Other events have improved for sure its the nature of things. But the marathon has exploded. I'll put a list of the top 25 times from 1996 versus the top times run just up to now this year. the difference is monumental. I can't find a list of the top 5000m and 10000m times in 1996 but in 1998 17 times the 13 minute barrier was broken, it was only broken 7 times last year. Why this massive improvement in just one event? Any theories?

Many more paced attempts on fast courses+EPO and other such drugs.

I agree that there are more face paced time chasing races out there, but part of that is that there are so many more guys able to go after those times. And as to EPO, they had it 10 years ago and there was no test for it at the time. The test now apparently sucks but it does exist and people do have to worry about it at least.

But two solid points 1. more races to go after times

2. Possible more wide spread drug use. Perhaps we could argue the track was already dirty in the late 90's but its taken a little longer for the marathoners to join up. But I don't know about that just because many of these men were and are in the same training groups

A 3rd possibility is that training has changed, have the africans changed how they prepare for the marathon in the last decade?

This is an interesting topic.

On your point about Africans changing how they prepare for the marathon, I don't know about their training habits but certainly the marathon, championship racing aside, is becoming more and more a speed race. I recall Cerutty saying in the book "Training With Cerutty" that at least back then 10k runners were often better prepared for a marathon than a marathoner as they trained nearly as much but often at a much faster pace - possibly now we are seeing more athletes starting out as 10k runners moving up to the marathon? This might also help explain why depth is not there as much in the 5k/10k, if the athletes who would have been running them have moved up to the marathon.

Perhaps another thing to consider could be the relative availability of prizemoney in the marathon compared to track racing. I don't really know any specific figures but for a hypothetical athlete capable of 27.30 10k - good enough to race on the Grand Prix circuit but not threaten the very elite - with some specific marathon training could quite possibly run well enough to win lower profile marathons or place highly in big city marathons and earn more than they would through track racing.

Money certainly could be a factor. It is damn near impossible for Africans to get a shoe deal worth anything and there really isn't a lot of money on the track. But there is money on the roads and you don't have to be on the roads long to see the real money is in the marathon. But still this has been drawing large numbers of runners to the marathon since the early 1980's. It is an idea I hadn't thought of though.

Back in 1996, when my fellow countryman Fiz was on top, there were very few kenyans and ethiopeans up there, they were still centered around track and cross-country.

Now they have entered massively the marathon field, where they can find plenty of money.

This in turn has discorauged many european runners, in Spain some years back there were some runners below 2h 10, now there is none.

There are more Kenyans on the new list that is a solid point. I also want to point out as a side note, Lee Bong Ju is second on 1996 list with a 2:08:24 and 28th? on the 2007 list with a 2:08:01. Hows that for irony he is 20 second faster in at the age of 37 then he was at 26 and he goes from the second fastest time in the world to the 28th. Ouch

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

there is a lot more $ in marathons now....

Not really. I mean there is more but not a lot more. There has been an upswing in money but no more then other road races.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but didn't the 5k/10k go through a similar revolution in the early-mid 90s?

Yes in the early 90's when Bob Kennady ran 13:04? in 92 he set a 4 year goal for himself of breaking the long standing world record in the next 4years, the record was 12:59 or 12:58 very high, Four years later Baby Fat Bob had run 12:58 low and the world record was 12:44.

My question is why did the marathon have this lag behind. It did improve in the early 90's but as the 5k and 10k sort of planned off in the late 90's and stayed to a steady level of improvement. The marathon just kept improving almost exponentially. Why? what is the difference. Its not that I expect anyone to know or for there to be one difference. It is just something that stuns me. Lets be honest if an American in the mid 90s broke 14:50 it would be about the same news as it would be now. But if Hall had run 2:06:16 in 1996 He would have been the new world record holder and 2 minutes faster then anybody else in the world. Now he got 5th in the race he was in and another runner ran faster the same day in another race. I want to get at some of the reasons why. Mostly because I think some of those reasons can help us improve in the marathon.

Part of it has to be improved training. International athletes have basically all left the old train like you would for a 10k but up your miles and increase your long runs theory of marathon training and now train extremely specifically for the marathon. Also some other things of note are the races these guys choose. The times at NYC aren't really any faster now then they were in the 90's but most of these guys don't go to Boston in the Spring anymore. They go to a dozen super fast marathons in Europe and Asia. But still the change is so huge there has to be more.

the increase of Kenyan focus on the marathon has been noted along with some reasons for that.

the big question I have is if there is some new drug out there. I tend to not be a big believer in the doping stuff, is it out there of course, but is everyone who is good doping, no. Maybe its because if I'm going to believe I can get great i need to believe that others who are great are clean, maybe its because I've been accused of using stuff and i know I'm clean. But for whatever reason I tend to believe a lot of the top guys are clean. But still is there something out there that is really helping marathon performance but doesn't have much effect on the shorter races? I mean one poster pointed to EPO but it was more usable in the 90's before there was any test for it.

Yes in the early 90's when Bob Kennady ran 13:04? in 92 he set a 4 year goal for himself of breaking the long standing world record in the next 4years, the record was 12:59 or 12:58 very high, Four years later Baby Fat Bob had run 12:58 low and the world record was 12:44.

My question is why did the marathon have this lag behind. It did improve in the early 90's but as the 5k and 10k sort of planned off in the late 90's and stayed to a steady level of improvement. The marathon just kept improving almost exponentially. Why? what is the difference. Its not that I expect anyone to know or for there to be one difference. It is just something that stuns me. Lets be honest if an American in the mid 90s broke 14:50 it would be about the same news as it would be now. But if Hall had run 2:06:16 in 1996 He would have been the new world record holder and 2 minutes faster then anybody else in the world. Now he got 5th in the race he was in and another runner ran faster the same day in another race. I want to get at some of the reasons why. Mostly because I think some of those reasons can help us improve in the marathon.

Part of it has to be improved training. International athletes have basically all left the old train like you would for a 10k but up your miles and increase your long runs theory of marathon training and now train extremely specifically for the marathon. Also some other things of note are the races these guys choose. The times at NYC aren't really any faster now then they were in the 90's but most of these guys don't go to Boston in the Spring anymore. They go to a dozen super fast marathons in Europe and Asia. But still the change is so huge there has to be more.

the increase of Kenyan focus on the marathon has been noted along with some reasons for that.

the big question I have is if there is some new drug out there. I tend to not be a big believer in the doping stuff, is it out there of course, but is everyone who is good doping, no. Maybe its because if I'm going to believe I can get great i need to believe that others who are great are clean, maybe its because I've been accused of using stuff and i know I'm clean. But for whatever reason I tend to believe a lot of the top guys are clean. But still is there something out there that is really helping marathon performance but doesn't have much effect on the shorter races? I mean one poster pointed to EPO but it was more usable in the 90's before there was any test for it.