why hasn't the 800 standard improved

Interesting comment

"Is it because this is the event where performance enhancing drugs have the least effect - steroids or EPO."

I would like to know more about the effects steroids and EPO have on the event.

PEts wrote:

Interesting comment

"Is it because this is the event where performance enhancing drugs have the least effect - steroids or EPO."

I would like to know more about the effects steroids and EPO have on the event.

I am no expert by any means but from what we read steroids help the sprinters heaps and epo helps the distance runners - 800 is caught in the middle somehow.

How much do these drugs help different events?

Also, with the womens 800 - i think it is a different event than it is for men - training wise.

ryun ran ~ 53.3 / 51.6 splits, a -ve split of 1.7s

it was a wr, so you have to take those splits as significant

it's been suggested that running ~ 1s -ve splits gives closest to "even pace" for 800m so he actually overshot that !

i'd suggest if he'd gone out in 24.2 he'd have failed to crack 1'45

one reason that the current guys are running not much quicker as they've been ingrained to running with 2s +ve splits, which because that's the only way they run in fast races, gives them a pb which people naturally assume is the correct way to run a fast 800 - it may not be

look at current og champ, borza - in his 1'42.4pb he ran ~ 51.7 / 50.7 ( from looking on youtube )

i'd suggest the top guys try running a few races with -ve splits in a season instead of trying to go out in the usual suicidal 50s & then coming back in 53 - 54s - they won't know until they try whether it'll improve their pb - maybe go out in 51.5 - 52.0 & see how much stronger they come back in

My opinion is that it's because people who are fast enough to raise the standard in the 800m will gravitate toward the 400m instead.

A serious post on the subject might actually be more helpful.

My opinion is that it's because people who are fast enough to raise the standard in the 800m will gravitate toward the 400m instead.[/quote]

Interesting suggestion.

I wonder if running too many 800s and either not enough 1500s has something to do with it? Perhaps they looked at Wilson Kipketer's career and thought if he can do it, why not me:

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=K/athcode=4681/index.html

eh ?

you don't think the splits of a former 1'44.3wr or the 1'42.4pb of current og champ aren't "serious" enough for consideration ?!

Standards have improved but I believe the quantity of people running sub 1:45 has improved. Although it was 12 years ago look at the depth of the Atlanta Olympics 800m final. Also the semis. Champinships races as we all know are not always likely to produce fast times, as for Grand Prix races sometimes people won't chase the rabbit. Coe, Cruz Kipkirter 1:41's were all ahead of their time. El Gurrouj never treated 800m seriously. I wonder if he could have ran 140?? Very good post

http://www.todor66.com/olim/1996/Athletics/Men_800m.html

i though you had a pretty good post. the BMC races over in the UK are always stupidly fast first laps so maybe if someone took a risk to attempt to run even pace we'd see some improvements

Come on, Ventolin. Take a deep breath and think.

Read this

and look for "Optimum speed distribution in 800m and training implications"

It doesn't give much weight to your theory my friend.

Also, surely at some stage the runners of today have gone through the first lap slowly.

They're all doing 400 m - how can that be?

Anyway my theory is that PEDs have assited other events but the effect of them on 800 m running is limited.

The 800 has really not gone very far at all.

Harbig ran 1.46.6 in 1939 on a dirt track. What would he have done on today's tracks. 1.45 flat at worst.

that's a nice link & needs careful looking athowever, he does tend to pick data which supports his proposition & doesn't address some factors as "herd mentality" where everyone runs fast lap "because that's what everyone does"i don't think he's addressed either the merits of running even/-ve splits ( maybe he has ) & concentrated on his ~2s split +ve data

most who followed cram's career woud call that 1'43.22 the best of his career despite running a 1'42.88 where he struggled a lot more in the stretch & looked far more distressed after than his 1'43.22

he also has borza's race now to consider

You make some good points regarding borza and ryun but the weight on numbers is heavily against you.Personally, I ran my best of a faster first 400. The first 150 must be fast so as to make the most of creatine phosphate energy system (read article). And as a result a faster first 400.Kipketer when he set his first WR (not equal WR) did th first 400 in 48 + - amazing stuff. 49.5 may have seen him run 1.40 that day

he indicates in that article that the creatine phosphate can be used later in the race if the runner starts off at a slower pace - so there is no reason not to believe you coudn't access it mid-race or at the end depending if/when in the race he puts in the fast push

i suppose maybe a way to think about not using cp system predominantly initially might be with a runner who is doing repetitions of near all-out 100m sprints with a few secs rest in between :

if he does his 1st sprint of 100m all-out, by the end he has used up all the creatine - he voluntary comes to a halt in 3 or 4s & then tries another all-out 100m sprint ( obviously not going to be able to do too many of these ! )

in those 3 - 4s of slowing/stopping, i doubt the metabolism allows any significant amount of the creatine to be reconstituted, so he must be using another energy system for his 2nd & subsequent sprints

it's an argument to see whether other systems can be primarily used if starting initial race slowly

The 800 is a stagnant event, one of many. Basically, all the field events are stagnant too. Marks have not improved much since the 70s.

ventolin wrote:

he indicates in that article that the creatine phosphate can be used later in the race if the runner starts off at a slower pace - so there is no reason not to believe you coudn't access it mid-race or at the end depending if/when in the race he puts in the fast push

ventolin - that names rings a bell on these boards - i read a very good comment you wrote somwhere not too long ago

anyway

yes it last for 6-8 seconds that you can extend to 2-3 times that - up to nearly 200 metres that means

Les wrote:

The 800 is a stagnant event, one of many. Basically, all the field events are stagnant too. Marks have not improved much since the 70s.

what other track events, Les?