Lydiard v Cerutty

actually i have provided a link to it on another site

So good free at last.

I have a real point of confusion because Cerutty basics denigrates circuit training somewhere yet i really like it. Can anyone help?

Also HRE mentioned a point before about how Lydiard never asked anyone to train with him whereas Cerutty was active in that way.

Is this important in the overall assessment of the men?

sim wrote:

Also HRE mentioned a point before about how Lydiard never asked anyone to train with him whereas Cerutty was active in that way.

Is this important in the overall assessment of the men?

Good question, Sim.

Perhaps Lydiard was the more at ease with himself. Percy did have a nervous breakdown before he became a great coach. Maybe Percy had to overcompensate for what he would have seen as his initial failure in life and was hungrier for acceptance and to be seen as successful (as a coach). Perhaps I am out right off track.

With Arthur's great success at Rome - 3 athletes - 3 medals. He had nothing left to prove. Not that I am suggesting Percy did. Perhaps the NZ aths admin showed him more support.

If PC did actively try to recruit, maybe that has harmed him in some way.

It does seem odd that the Cerutty legacy has dwindled. Perhaps this will rekindle things.

Why in Australia does no one ever talk about him (or Franz Stampfl for that matter)? The only two guys to coach Middle distance Olympic Gold Medalists and they are disregarded. Is that crazy or what?

Who are we listening to instead?

I think respected guys like Ron Clarke and John Landy not being big fans of his may have has something to do with it. And many put Herb's success down to raw talent (including Ron Clarke).

Herb has said/implied that sometimes Percy contradicted himself or said some funny things but said that he was able to filter things out and take on board the great things that Percy said and forget the rest.

There is no doubt that Percy and Stampfl inspired greatness in a different way to Lydiard. It was like

Percy - use running to become a greater person - sacrifice like the saints

Franz - expect nothing but greatness from yourself

Arthur - do it my way and YOU WILL WIN.

Or am I simplifying things?

All expecting excellence - what coaches these days can inspire?

You are definitely on to something when you mention that

Landy and Clarke are not Percy's biggest fans.

Someone who trained with Percy and admired him posted her

a couple of years ago. In fact, there was a thread in which at least two, maybe more, men that trained at Portsea participated in. One mentioned that Perce was bipolar, by the modern definition.

Perce seemed subject to extreme mood swings and I feel that a

lot of people have mixed feelings about him. On one hand he helped produce herb Elliott who arguably is the greatest Aussie runner ever. On the other hand he turned off many great Aussie runners like Landy and Clarke.

Ron Clarke devoted a section of his book, "Run Easy", to

Percy's methods. In one other section of his book, Ron mentions that there are fanatics and a gave an example of one from Australia. "Parents sent their offspring to him, some even from as far away as England and America and he burned them off with his ratbag ideas."

You said exactly the sort of thing I expected and was hoping for. I see all these posts here with people looking for schedules and formulas as a way to run their best and while I see a lot of usefulness in having those things as templates they ignore the person using them.

When I look in the "Lydiard" threads where people want to know how fast to run in their base phase or what sorts of intervals to do in their anaerobic phase I always want to say something along the lines of what you wrote, e.g., "Only you can answer that for yourself and finding that answer is huge part of what sort of runner you'll be."

Thanks.

sim wrote:

Also HRE mentioned a point before about how Lydiard never asked anyone to train with him whereas Cerutty was active in that way.

Is this important in the overall assessment of the men?

It probably is but I'm not sure how.

In the Seventies there was a popular book here in the US called "Little Big Man." It was the ficticious account of the only white survivor of the Battle of the Little Big Horn between Custer and the Sioux. The character was a white guy who'd been kidnapped by Indians at an early age and then spent his life going back and forth between the white and Indian world, finally ending up as a scout for Cuater at Little Big Horn.

At one point, this character is asked to compare Custer and Sitting Bull as leaders. Sitting Bull, in the book, comes off as the more admirable man, leading his people because they respect and like him and WANT to follow him. Custer, on the other hand, comes off as egomaniacal and unpleasant. His men follow him because it's their duty.

The character comments that Custer's ability to get men who don't like him or really believe in him to do what he wants them to is in some ways more impressive than Sitting Bull's ability to get men who liked and believed in him to follow.

The few people I know who've dealt with both men much preferred dealing with Lydiard. Arthur certainly knew how to promote himself, but managed to do it without seeming as abrasive, from what i've heard, as Cerutty did. Maybe that's a big part of why there is so much more interest in his methods than in Cerutty's.

HRE wrote:

You said exactly the sort of thing I expected and was hoping for. I see all these posts here with people looking for schedules and formulas as a way to run their best and while I see a lot of usefulness in having those things as templates they ignore the person using them.

When I look in the "Lydiard" threads where people want to know how fast to run in their base phase or what sorts of intervals to do in their anaerobic phase I always want to say something along the lines of what you wrote, e.g., "Only you can answer that for yourself and finding that answer is huge part of what sort of runner you'll be."

Thanks.

I have to totally agree, however, would you agree that one should at least understand some boundaries early on.

Some words from Herb:

Amanda Smith: Well at that time, were either you or your parents aware that Percy Cerutty was regarded by some as a bit of a 'fruit loop'?

Herb Elliott: Yes. I don't know, I didn't discuss that with Mum and Dad, I think if they thought he had have been totally or genuinely a fruit loop then they wouldn't have allowed me to stay here in Melbourne, and it was with their blessing that I stayed here in Melbourne. I didn't say, 'Well stuff you, I'm staying', it wasn't one of those sorts of situations. He was eccentric, he was unpredictable, and he was entertaining, had an enormous sense of fun, but he would be very close to probably the most widely read man that I've met, in terms of the breadth of subjects that he read about: spiritual aspects or physical aspects or mental aspects, or art, or science or saints or devils, I mean Percy didn't read books, he studied books. He would often stop when an interesting point was raised, and write a two page essay on that particular point, just so he could think through his own views that had been provoked. So he was a highly, very widely read guy and he had a very sound philosophy behind all the nonsense and the hoo har that was going on. Underneath it all there was a sort of sound philosophy based on 'Let's improve ourselves as human beings, let's become more compassionate, let's become bigger, let's become stronger, let's become nicer people.'

Amanda Smith: Did you always have total faith in Cerutty? Even in the knowledge that others thought he was pretty kooky, did you ever doubt his methods or find fault with his personal behaviour?

Herb Elliott: I never had doubt about him, no. But I used to ignore some of the things that he said to me. There would be times where he would say something that was insightful for me, and it seemed to me to be genius. Then there'd be other times where he would say something, which I would think was ridiculous. But that never bothered me, I just ignored it. And so I was fortunate I guess, that I was able to select those things that he had to give me which helped me, and I was able to reject those things which I didn't think would help me. And so our relationship went on and on and on for years. Some of his other athletes found that sometimes he would say something one day that was in conflict with what he might have said a week ago, and they found that disturbing and lost faith and moved on. But we worked because I sieved what he told me and took what I wanted and didn't take the rest.

Amanda Smith: And you could wear the contradictions in him?

Herb Elliott: Yes, I loved the contradictions in him. You just never knew what was going to happen next. There was an atmosphere of tension, of excitement, fun, that was part of our relationship.

-I guess it takes a certain personality to deal with someone like Percy and possibly because herb had that personality he is considered greater than Clarke and Landy. Intersting that both Clarke and Landy were influenced by Cerutty early in their careers. As schoolboys i think and as such still in their formative years.

You could be right about the abrasiveness, add it to the erraticness Herb talked about and he wouldn't have been everyones cup of tea. Arthur on the other hand seems more at ease. The story you told about the fish made him seem very easy although he was very old i guess.

Possibly part of the reason for Lydiard's larger legacy was he did amazing stuff at the Olympic Games. At the right time. Having said that if Herb had continued he may have done some pretty special things. Which brings another point.

Herb didn't continue and he even says the reason in that DVD 'supermilers'. Something like he didn't really want to do it anymore and the thought of the gruelling training turned him off in the end.

The picture i get of Lydiard is that the training is enjoyable more often than not. Sure it is also honest so the work must be done but my coach only had things hard 3 times a week on alternating days and it follows all the rules so if three hard sessions a week is enough my athletes won't argue. (of course when someone is totally on top of three four is the only next step)

So maybe Herb was burned from his training. I've noticed something without being academic about it and that is the interval type training methods produce short term careers. Lydiard's methods seemed to create long term careers. The British legends Ovett and Cram had half the year devoted to aerobic conditioning (damn you coe). Ovett was a random naturalistic type of guy and probably would have fit well with Lydiard and maybe even Cerutty.

I think you would agree with most of this HRE as you have helped lead me to think this way about Arthur and to see that behind it all we should be building ourselves from the center outwards, just like filling a balloon.

cheers

I wonder why so much "running at the spot"!!

argh typos...

Thanks icecold fo writing all the stuff!

Yes,

I have studied Cerutty for over 10 years now. Met several great people through the association.

Several books you could try;

first is Training with Cerutty, Myers.

second is my favorite, called Middle distance training, Cerutty.

third is Be fit or be damned, Cerutty.

Most of these books are not printed in the US

There are a few references to Lydiard in Cerutty's books. They had different training methods.

Arthur didn't use weight training, track w/o's, whereas Cerutty did along with training in Portsea along the coast near Melborne. The toughness training that Cerutty used was incredible. Using sand hills for developing the muscles. Weights for burning muscles. Arthur figured that too many miles was not good, but around 100-120 mi was ideal.

Sim, no don't think we've met. I thought your posts reminded me of a decathlete who posted on Coolrunning from time to time. I'm up the Northern Highway south of Bendigo.

I used to run B/C grade level 5ks and xc for Old Paradians in the 80s early 90s.

You were probably lapping as i was throwing the jav or something out at Box Hill back then, i was with Old Melburnian's. You would have raced Mark Seymour a bit?

My 16yo son is right into the Hunters music at the moment so I hear plenty of Mark Seymour these days. My track pb was only around 16 flat, I think Seymour must have been running in the 15s as I remember finishing behind him and someone telling me who he was.

We had some good athletes at our club, Craig Considine was the club decathlon record holder back in my time.

I'm looking around coaching at the moment and checking out what others coaches are doing and i am finding a serious lack of people who are following the Cerutty way, even in part. Yet Lydaird disciples are everywhere. Why so much difference?

Did you know the percussionist was Jack Howard also of the Hunters and he threw shot and discus for St Kevin's as well? I was tripped out when i found out about these guys. Seymour was a pretty hard-core distance trainer.

I think the recently deceased Max Cherry was influenced by Percy. Donna MacFarlane and Hanny Alston were being coached by Max. Dave Chettle was also coached by Max in his younger Tassie days too. A guy called ?Russell Morgan- Morris? rings some bells as a bit of a PC man.

I think Percy was a man of brilliant ideas but not as good as Lydiard at structuring them. That made it hard for any Cerutty system of training to develop.

Just as a side note I remember Percy sometimes appeared on daytime TV, some sought of advice program. Must have been back in the late 60s early 70s. I can still remember thinking this guys a bit of a fruitcake, didn't know much about who he was then.

Didn't know that Jack Howard was also an athlete. Our jav man in early 80s went on to do some tv comedy stuff, buggered if I can think of his name though.

mopak wrote:

I think the recently deceased Max Cherry was influenced by Percy.

Yep, correct there mate. Max trained with Percy for period of time at Portsea. As a coach he was definitely his own man but having trained under him as well as read about Cerutty's theories and ideas there are some similarities. If my memory serves me correctly I think he may have met Arthur Lydiard at some point but I'm not 100% sure on that.