Bekele greatest; how about Ngugi?

Today's CC courses are more like a race in a park...nothing

like the old CC courses. Ngugi would have smoked KB over a

tough course!!

Stuey wrote:

2. No dilution of competition with short course.

Yes that caused some dilution but since Bekele won the 4k each year as well that is a pretty poor argument.

Fair call of course but my points were more cumulative....that Ngugi arguably faced a more comprehensive group of the world's best distance runners, with more of them taking the World Cross as a serious peak, on a wider range of terrains in a one off winner take all 12k and still dominated.

As I said, I take nothing away from Bekele's achievements I just don't see it as a complete slam dunk that he is the clear GOAT over cross country.....

I wouldn't say he is the clear GOAT over cross country either, but a victory in Scotland would go a long way towards helping that argument.

Greatest Cross Guys All-time:

Ngugi (don't know why people memories are so short)

Bekele (his doubles year after year are just superhuman)

Tergat (owned xc during his prime)

(I wished Bill Rodgers ran more cross during his prime, as people are unaware of how the guy's running style and body was just made for xc; I think he could have medaled even in tomorrow's race)

Tergat loses some respect in my book because he usually had a fellow kenyan pace him. Mgugi did not.

Tergat had a hissy fit in 2000 when world cross country challenge point leader and potential medal winner Kamathi was selected instead of another pacer for Tergat. Tergat finished third and blamed the Kenyan federation.

I had a bit more time so checked up on my memory on Ngugi's winning margins:

1986 - 2nd 2 seconds back, 3rd 7 seconds

1987 - 2nd (Kipkoech) same time, 3rd 44 seconds

1988 - 2nd 22 seconds back, 3rd 35 seconds

1989 - 2nd 28 seconds back, 3rd 39 seconds

1992 - 2nd 12 seconds back, 3rd 14 seconds.

Let's look at your points:

"1. Winning margins were if I remember correctly way greater than Bekele's."

(not "way greater". You proved yourself that Ngugi had a couple big margins, but avg margin of victory was only slightly larger than Bekele's_ )

"2. No dilution of competition with short course."

(not a valid argument because:

a) bekele beat all those good athletes who supposedly diluted the long course race by moving to the short course, in, you guessed it, the short course race.

b) Bekele winning the long course race the day after wining the short course makes his long course wins that much more impressive. And winning all the short course races makes his x-c versatility and near-invincibility that much more impressive)

c) please point to one athlete who ran world cross short course instead of long course that had even an iota of a chance to beat Bekele in the long course. You can't. Just because less athletes line up on the starting line of a race doesn't mean that the group of those with a chance of winning has been diluted. Goucher running the short course didn't "dilute" Bekele's real competition for gold in long course. RIght? Of course.

"3. World track champs were only in infancy and once every 4 years so more people peaked for World Cross as it was often only global title available in a year." They are two entirely different parts of the year, and anyone with a legit shot at winning world cross would run it.

"4. World Indoors again not that big of a deal at that stage for distance or even middle distance guys."

This is a somewhat valid point at first glance, but can you point to an athlete who did world track indoors instead of world cross that might have beaten Bekele in world cross?? No way. Again, see point 2c above.

"5. Wider range of terrain and more "true" cross country courses."

Not sure about that. Franklin park was hardly a tough course. And Bekele has run some challenging courses.

"6. Less money in the marathons so again typically more of best distance runners would have a crack at cross country."

Less money in marathons & road races = less great East Africans competing in all distance events over all terrains . since the advent of more money in running, more quality east africans are competing now which means Bekele has been battling more top runners than Ngugi ever did.

"Not taking anything away from Bekele who may go on to win many more titles and make debate irrelevant but at this stage I'm still voting Ngugi...."

Bekele also won a jr gold and silver in the long course the next day AS A JUNIOR. If he skipped the jr race that year, and didn't have to compete in the cauldron of Mombassa last year, he might very well ALREADY HAVE 7 LONG COURSE VICTORIES and be going for # 8 tomorrow.

The debate is already over: Bekele is the greatest x-c runner ever.

Hwy 6 wrote:

(I wished Bill Rodgers ran more cross during his prime, as people are unaware of how the guy's running style and body was just made for xc; I think he could have medaled even in tomorrow's race)

Not to take anything away from Bill Rodgers, he's a great guy and one of my favorite runners of all time, but I think he would chuckle at your medal comment.

Not that this says everything but Rodgers did win a Bronze at World Cross in 1975 before running 2:09 at Boston. I think Ian Stewart won that race, so even then it was pretty baller.

RM wrote:

Not that this says everything but Rodgers did win a Bronze at World Cross in 1975 before running 2:09 at Boston. I think Ian Stewart won that race, so even then it was pretty baller.

Rodgers was great, but Ian Stewart? Also very good, but he was no East Africa of this era. He would have been wiped off the map in today's race.

Charles Atlas Shrugs wrote:xxxxxxxxxxxx.

well said Charlie boy

Charles Atlas Shrugs wrote:

Bekele also won a jr gold and silver in the long course the next day AS A JUNIOR. If he skipped the jr race that year, and didn't have to compete in the cauldron of Mombassa last year, he might very well ALREADY HAVE 7 LONG COURSE VICTORIES and be going for # 8 tomorrow.

The debate is already over: Bekele is the greatest x-c runner ever.

Bekele ran the short race after winning the junior race in 2001.

Bekele's five doubles and the fact that he has lost one cross country race as a senior make him the greatest ever in my opinion. The doubles don't take away from greatness, they add to it.

Although Bekele has better track credentials, I'm not sure I'd rate him ahead of Ngugi as a XC runner.

The most dominant win I have ever witnessed over a world-class field was Ngugi's win at the World XC when it was in Boston.

(I wished Bill Rodgers ran more cross during his prime, as people are unaware of how the guy's running style and body was just made for xc; I think he could have medaled even in tomorrow's race) QUOTE

I dispute this claim. We know little about BR's abilities over x-c VARYING terrain. BR doesn't look like a cross country runner to me....compared to someone like Frank Shorter (a real floater).

1975 Rabat Morocco was a virtual road race (John Walker NZ was 4th).

Usher wrote:

Although Bekele has better track credentials, I'm not sure I'd rate him ahead of Ngugi as a XC runner.

The most dominant win I have ever witnessed over a world-class field was Ngugi's win at the World XC when it was in Boston.

Have you ever seen Bekele run a cross country race? I've only ever seen his victories at Fukuoka. He was running with the others and then he put on a burst of speed and was running by himself. That was the race.

Ngugi was incredible to watch. The guy was absent from anywhere near the front of the pack for the first 2k in most WXC races. I recall him not passing my mid-packer butt until 2 miles in Aix Les Baines where he eventually joined the front pack. Khalid Skah won that day, but perhaps only because Ngugi chose to hurdle the 4 foot dirt barrier on each lap that everyone else was taking 2 steps to get over. He hurt his back because of this and faded.

If anyone witnessed Ngugi's 5000 gold medal race in the Seoul Olympics, he put his XC skills to work on the track by throwing in a 2:00 800 split early in the race to break open a 50 meter lead on the field.

Ngugi had an early exit from the sport because he refused an un-announced drop-by-his-farm drug test by IAAF peeps (bigger story worth reading about).

Notorious for getting out of shape in the off-season, Ngugi never made it back to form after the ban.

All this said, I'm incredibly impressed by anyone that finishes in the top 50 at WXC. All of them have the skills to win major races.

benglois wrote:

Today's CC courses are more like a race in a park...nothing

like the old CC courses. Ngugi would have smoked KB over a

tough course!!

NOBODY past or present can smoke Bekele in a xc race. He would beat Ngugi just like everyone else. He normally wins both events. Ngugi can't even approach some of the times Bekele has run. It's popular to doubt Bekele but I have to ask how many times he needs to prove everybody wrong? Just like last year when he had a bad year and people said Mottram could beat him for 3k or that he would lose the 10k at the World Track Championships. Do you even pay attention?