Sentiment tells everyone that Haile G. is the greatest. However, Kenny B. beat him at a relatively young age. As far as I know, Bekele has never lost an international 10k. I hope Haile does do the 10k in the Olympics. He is a legend... that will lose to Kenny B. Why do so many dislike Bekele? He did what Tergat could not... dominate Haile g. Give him some credit.
When Bekele began beating Geb on the track, there was already evidence that Geb no longer had the raw speed that he had back in the 1990s. And Bekele has shown, on many occasions, that he is vulnerable in the 3K to 5K range against decent kickers in rabbitless races. If Bekele has an edge in the mythical rankings, I see it in his cross-country racing, not his track racing.
On the track, a 10,000 between the two of them at their prime, with no rabbits, would have been a race for the ages. I might have given Geb a slight edge, because I think that he probably had the edge in finishing speed, enabling him to draft and let Bekele set the pace.
(If Bekele turns to roadracing while he's still in his prime years, I think that he can eclipse Geb's PRs at every distance, including the marathon, under similar conditions.)
Bekele has nothing on Haile.
I wouldn't expect much from ethiopia over the next few years.
geb has always been a bit tricky to "work out"
in his peak season, with a bit of trial-n-error
& using this :
his best line of fit comes off
~ 50.85 / 1'47.00
->
3'29.64
7'19.15
12'36.33
26'18.91
the one problem is the perennial under-achieving at 3k
his 1500 time is consistent with 3'31i ( knock off a coupla secs for outdoors ), his 5k actual of 12'39 was run of a slowish 4k with i believe a final km of ~ 2'29 - if his 4k split had been reached quicker at even pace, he was worth quicker than 12'39, & obviously he was capable of running quicker than 26'22 ( he basically was just chasing tergat's wr but probably didn't want to break it by too much as he wanted scope to "rebreak" it later & pick up another wr bonus, but never got the chance ! )
kennster is slightly different
kennster on current career gets an line of best fit with
~ 51.70 / 1'48.20
->
3'31.04
7'20.07
12'35.57
26'11.13
he's slower than geb in 400 & 800 ability, definitely slower over 1.5k, perhaps was 1s slower over 3k & similarly over 5k, but a significantly better 10k
i'd have to say, kennster is already quicker over 5k/10k than geb ever was
Haile's longevity and personality is part of what makes him great. If Bekele lasts as long, he will prove to be a much better runner but personality wise he doesn't have what Geb and Tergat have in my opinion.
Remember that Geb owned the track, but he could never come close to Tergat in cross country. Bekele is dominating both mediums at the moment, so yeah, if he can hold on for 10+ more years and take his show to the roads, he will be the greatest ever, hands down. I could realistically see him having the 5k, 10k, half and full marathon world records, 2 10k gold medals and a gold medal in the marathon...that would be a hell of a career.
Avocados Number wrote:
When Bekele began beating Geb on the track, there was already evidence that Geb no longer had the raw speed that he had back in the 1990s. And Bekele has shown, on many occasions, that he is vulnerable in the 3K to 5K range against decent kickers in rabbitless races. If Bekele has an edge in the mythical rankings, I see it in his cross-country racing, not his track racing.
On the track, a 10,000 between the two of them at their prime, with no rabbits, would have been a race for the ages. I might have given Geb a slight edge, because I think that he probably had the edge in finishing speed, enabling him to draft and let Bekele set the pace.
(If Bekele turns to roadracing while he's still in his prime years, I think that he can eclipse Geb's PRs at every distance, including the marathon, under similar conditions.)
I'm sorry. I don't buy this for a second. Bekele has already beaten Haile's 5k/10k prs... which he would have done in his prime. No doubt Haile G. has longevity, he is still setting world records. Which is why I don't believe he was that far off his best when he lost to Kenny B. on the track on numerous occasions. Heck, Haile was sub 27:00 last year. Everyone jumped on Kenny B's case last year when he "struggled"... while going undefeated. Remember that some foolishly claimed he would lose to Mottram in the 3k. Sure, he isn't dominating in the 5k in slower paced races. Put him in a world beating situation and even Haile G. couldn't beat him.
runners from different eras should not be compared by their times, they should be compared on how the fared against their opponents in their particular eras.
Haile was pushed to limits and was great because he had Tergat to push him and test him every time they stepped on the track, or even when they werent running together but were chasing each others records. Haile was still able to dominate slightly over a legen like Tergat, adding to Haile's credibility as the GOAT.
Kenenisa still has a lot of career left in him to run. He doesnt have a rival to be motivated by, yet has been able to break records at such an early age. Bekele has broke the 10k record a few times and each time he was running the last couple laps virtually by himself, proving how raw the kid is.
Tactically, Bekele doesnt have what Haile had in taking control of a race no matter what the distance. But he still has plenty of time and running to become better than what he already is.
Haile= the GOAT
Bekele= the Next GOAT
Makes sense. Also I don't think it is fair to talk about Bekele not dominating the 5k. Firstly, Haile never had to race El G. in the Olympics. he would have lost every race over 13:00 against Gerrouj hands down. Secondly, Haile G. never beat Bekele in a major 5k that I remember. You are right... Kenny B. doesn't really have another superstar pushing him at the moment. Kipchoge did well at one world championship but has had trouble following it up. I have seen races where Bekele planned on going after the 5k record but ran in the 12:40s because nobody stayed with him... that isn't his fault. When he retires he will have faster personal bests then Haile G. and most likely more world titles... if he doesn't already.
hey wrote:
Avocados Number wrote:When Bekele began beating Geb on the track, there was already evidence that Geb no longer had the raw speed that he had back in the 1990s. And Bekele has shown, on many occasions, that he is vulnerable in the 3K to 5K range against decent kickers in rabbitless races. If Bekele has an edge in the mythical rankings, I see it in his cross-country racing, not his track racing.
On the track, a 10,000 between the two of them at their prime, with no rabbits, would have been a race for the ages. I might have given Geb a slight edge, because I think that he probably had the edge in finishing speed, enabling him to draft and let Bekele set the pace.
(If Bekele turns to roadracing while he's still in his prime years, I think that he can eclipse Geb's PRs at every distance, including the marathon, under similar conditions.)
I'm sorry. I don't buy this for a second. Bekele has already beaten Haile's 5k/10k prs... which he would have done in his prime. No doubt Haile G. has longevity, he is still setting world records. Which is why I don't believe he was that far off his best when he lost to Kenny B. on the track on numerous occasions. Heck, Haile was sub 27:00 last year. Everyone jumped on Kenny B's case last year when he "struggled"... while going undefeated. Remember that some foolishly claimed he would lose to Mottram in the 3k. Sure, he isn't dominating in the 5k in slower paced races. Put him in a world beating situation and even Haile G. couldn't beat him.
First, you have no idea which man in his prime would have run faster in a 5K or 10K time trial under similar conditions. If Bekele had been the man of the 90s, and Geb had been the man of the 2000s, their PRs might well be reversed. That's just the way things work when people are chasing world records and racing against the competition of their own era.
Second, the fact that Haile could run under 27 last year is hardly a good reason to think that he couldn't have beaten Bekele when he was in his peak years on the track a dozen years ago. Quite the opposite. It suggests that Haile probably could have run significantly faster at his peak if he had been pursuing faster records and racing faster competitors.
Third, I'm not sure what you mean by "a world beating situation," but it sounds as though you mean a rabbitted race that's designed to produce fast times. To me, that's not "a world beating situation"; it's just a lab experiment. To me, "a world beating situation" would involve putting the world's best runners on the track, each man trying to beat everyone else, with no rabbits or domestiques to assist anyone. I think that Haile in his prime might very well beat Bekele and everyone else in that race.
I don't say any of this because I'm a big fan of Geb, or because I dislike Bekele. In fact, I was always on the side of Tergat against Geb, and my admiration for Geb has diminished a bit during his string of paced road racing exhibitions in recent times. Conversely, I hated to see Bekele get blown away in the 5K Olympic finals in 2004, and I've been super-impressed by his cross-country running, which makes me somewhat inclined to say that he's the best distance runner ever. But 10,000 meters on the track against Geb in his prime, in a real race with no rabbits, is another matter.
Okay... I guess I just disagree. Bekele never lost to Haile and Haile wasn't exactly putting up slow times. I think everyone wants to think Haile g. is/was better but that isn't necessarily true. You have rely on speculation to make that assertion where as Bekele has dominated the 10k and xc form quite a while now... and he beat Haile's times. He actually broke to the 10k world record twice now. Haile also had greats like Paul Tergat and Daniel Komen running at the time. So far this year the only person making waves is Kenny B.'s brother. When all is said and done, Haile G. will not have the titles or the times that beat Kenny B. Hopefully in 5-8 years Kenny moves up to the marathon and takes that record as well. It isn't that I don't like Haile G... I just think people have a very jaded view of him for some reason. Like all the allegations of drug use whereas you rarely hear that about Haile... nor should you about either man unless you have proof.
i'd hardly classify as the 2 being from "different" eras
one followed the other & they did race each other & their times can definitely be compared
Both of these guys could run 146-147 800m in training, and both well under 50 for 400m in their prime. When Geb says he's lost
speed that means he can't hit 22 anymore.
Let's not make it out like Geb was old and feeble when Bekele beat him. He was still in his prime. In 2003 Geb ran a 26:29.22, his second best time ever, whereas Bekele's pr going into the World Championships was still only 26:53.
They were equals, and we know who won when it counted.
hey wrote:
Bekele never lost to Haile and Haile wasn't exactly putting up slow times. I think everyone wants to think Haile g. is/was better but that isn't necessarily true.
As I said, I have no particular allegiance to Haile, but Bekele never ran against him in his prime. By 2000, Haile was already struggling a bit with injuries that were affecting his form, but he still managed to win a fast 10,000 in Sydney on a pretty hot day with a 25.4 finish. By 2001, he was getting outkicked by the likes of Kamathi, who wouldn't have touched him in his prime. Two years later, when Bekele really emerged, Geb was not close to being the same racer of the mid- to late-90s, even though his times were not tremendously slower.
Especially in light of the different records they were aiming to break, the differences in the 5K and 10K PRs of the two men are negligible, so I would give the edge to the better kicker in an unrabbitted race. I've seen Bekele get outkicked in a lot of races by a lot of different runners in the past five years, and I can't say the same of Geb in his prime (and he ran against some pretty fast middle-distance runners), so that's why I would probably bet on the best Geb against the best Bekele in a match race in a track 10,000 without rabbits. The same would probably be true at any shorter distance on the track. I think that the best Bekele would beat the best Geb in cross-country, and perhaps on the road as well.
They are both part of the grand african doping scam.
benglois wrote:
They are both part of the grand african doping scam.
Yes, and they both take the same drugs today, presumably, and the drugs they take today seem to achieve identical effects to those of the 90s, so comparing them seems quite reasonable---unlike, say comparing El G and Ovett or some such goofiness.
kennster got outkicked by
1) chebii, a man with a monster of a kick in ~52s in a race ending in close to 12'50
2) songok a 3'30 guy ( maybe not quite then ) in a ? 52/53 in a race won in 12'48
3) eliud with another quick lap in a 12'52 race
4) el g of course
geb never faced these calibre of kickers in his "prime" & i'd bet good money that in those particular races, they'd also have beaten him
of note, the only decent kicker he faced was skah who hammered him in the last lap of 5k in '94 in 13-flat, when that was a great time, just 4s off wr ( geb still young, but he wasn't a broke-dick : was 5k wr holder at time with 12'56 & 10k wc from '93 & silver over 5k )
geb didn't face the number & calibre of kickers kennster has
Avocados Number wrote:
As I said, I have no particular allegiance to Haile, but Bekele never ran against him in his prime. By 2000, Haile was already struggling a bit with injuries that were affecting his form, but he still managed to win a fast 10,000 in Sydney on a pretty hot day with a 25.4 finish. By 2001, he was getting outkicked by the likes of Kamathi, who wouldn't have touched him in his prime. Two years later, when Bekele really emerged, Geb was not close to being the same racer of the mid- to late-90s, even though his times were not tremendously slower.
Especially in light of the different records they were aiming to break, the differences in the 5K and 10K PRs of the two men are negligible, so I would give the edge to the better kicker in an unrabbitted race. I've seen Bekele get outkicked in a lot of races by a lot of different runners in the past five years, and I can't say the same of Geb in his prime (and he ran against some pretty fast middle-distance runners), so that's why I would probably bet on the best Geb against the best Bekele in a match race in a track 10,000 without rabbits. The same would probably be true at any shorter distance on the track. I think that the best Bekele would beat the best Geb in cross-country, and perhaps on the road as well.
I agree with this post. At best, we can say they are equal, but certainly Bekele outkicking Geb in 2003 is not an indication that he would've beaten him in the mid-late 1990s'.
I personally feel that..... some people in America don't have maps. Sorry but when I read that someone personally feels or believes anything I immediately think of things such as, the Iraq.